Old Advice

[leVieux]

>

For many years, decades, folks who knew that I was a “gun guy” and an ex handgun aficionado often asked for recommendations of a pistol when they began to concealed carry.

My usual spiel was to begin with a small, simple gun of “adequate caliber”, meaning .380 or better, usually a 9mmPB or .38Spl. Specificly, J-frames, Ruger-style pocket .380’s, or small 9mm semi-auto’s.

I still think this way is best for those new to handguns, carry, & self-defense.

But, today I see all sorts of complicated carry rigs, many with various “optics” devices requiring special holsters. That may be fine for experts or proficient shooters, but seem to complicate things needlessly for a beginner.

In my own personal experience, the mere presence of a defensive handgun will avert street crimes, with no need to draw or “brandish”, much less to actually fire.

Study of case reports and lessons from recognized experts tell of defensive weapon uses often being at very short range, events not requiring much marksmanship or shooting skills.

Indeed, when living in big cities, my “EDC” was a G26 w/ LaserMax & “night sights” riding in a GALCO “Scout” iwb no-retention holster. A frequent alternate was 1 or 2 S&W “J-frames” in similar holsters, or a “pocket pistol” in a pocket holster. (I always carry a separate tac-light and a police/referee whistle.)

Have any of you had any direct experiences USING optics-equipped handguns for self-defense in real-life incidents?

Please tell us of your experiences.

leVieux
.

 

[ZX9RCAM]

In my own personal experience, the mere presence of a defensive handgun will avert street crimes, with no need to draw or “brandish”, much less to actually fire.





Please tell us of your experiences.

leVieux
.

How is your handguns presence known if you don't draw or brandish it?

 

[leVieux]

How is your handguns presence known if you don't draw or brandish it?

>

I have found that “Don’t make me draw my weapon!” to work so-far.

In real life, I haven’t needed to remove a pistol from its holster in a very long time.

On one incident, directly across from the Westheimer HPD substation, I pulled my shirt aside and gripped the weapon.

The charging BG somehow saw it and stopped. He was drugged-out.

And you ?
.

 

[ZX9RCAM]

I thought pulling ones shirt aside was brandishing, not to mention gripping the weapon.




Never had any incident.

 

[toddnjoyce]

Texas does not have a statue on brandishing per se and hasn’t for at least 25 years. Carry, either open or concealed, has generally been covered in the statutes as being in a holster of some type. The statutes generally treat display of a handgun that’s not holstered as a use of force issue.

Having said that, unless LEOs are involved and a citation or arrest is made, we don’t really know if someone has cleared leather or not. Even then, there’s a handful of statutes it can fall under.

 

[Mills]

Pulling your shirt aside on Westheimer is a risky move in itself.

 

[mad88minute]

A few weeks ago i walked up on my vehicle being broken into. As I approached my vehicle ( large work van) i noticed a car backed in next to me, and my van was moving. I hit the lock button on my keys, my van honked twice in response telling me my side door was open.
Automatically i stopped walking toward, and started side stepping. Didn't want to get any closer but wanted to get a better view. At the same time i drew my weapon out of my cargo pocket. It's a 380 max in a kydex pocket holster.
https://pjholster.com/products/pocket

The bad guys sped off before I could get a description. Don't know how many there were, or what color their skin was (first question everyone asks,)
I was about 30' from my van when they sped off,
The windows were so tinted I couldn't see them inside, and i thought in my head " they might have a gun pointed at me right now". So i kept my drawn handgun at my side out of view.

At that distance i would have needed the sights on my 380 max to make a hit. I am glad I didn't have something like an LCP with almost flush sights. I don't think I would have needed a red dot like the one I use on my 365xl. But it wouldn't have hurt my draw, aim, or increased capacity.

Has me considering carrying more gun, and more ammo. Next time i might not get so luck and they might stick around to fight.

Sent from my moto g power (2022) using Tapatalk

 

[Sam7sf]

I do not consider raising the shirt and grabbing the weapon while it still being holstered to be brandishing. Even a communist state like my former state of residence that does have a law on it wouldn’t see it as such.

Brandishing is flashing your gun without intent to draw or you do draw with a threat to intimidate. If you feel you may have to draw your iwb weapon, well lifting your shirt and placing your hand over your weapon in a ready position is just that…you’re getting ready to defend your life AND maybe a responsible gun owner is witnessing a real threat, telling the threat do not come any closer and is keeping himself legal by not pointing a gun at someone he isn’t completely sure needs to be shot.

It’s like with le or security. Someone looking at you like they are going to slit your throat and shit down your neck, walking towards you, with his hands in his sweatshirt pocket with an outline of something not his hands. No one’s going to say his or her hands won’t be on that holster.

Laws need to loosen up across the country if anything. Way more troublemakers than normal people these days.

 

[ZX9RCAM]

I do not consider raising the shirt and grabbing the weapon while it still being holstered to be brandishing. Even a communist state like my former state of residence that does have a law on it wouldn’t see it as such.

Brandishing is flashing your gun without intent to draw or you do draw with a threat to intimidate. If

While I never said "brandishing" was wrong, aren't your two comments contradictory?



What term should be used instead of "brandishing" for this action?

 

[leVieux]

A few weeks ago i walked up on my vehicle being broken into. As I approached my vehicle ( large work van) i noticed a car backed in next to me, and my van was moving. I hit the lock button on my keys, my van honked twice in response telling me my side door was open.
Automatically i stopped walking toward, and started side stepping. Didn't want to get any closer but wanted to get a better view. At the same time i drew my weapon out of my cargo pocket. It's a 380 max in a kydex pocket holster.
https://pjholster.com/products/pocket

The bad guys sped off before I could get a description. Don't know how many there were, or what color their skin was (first question everyone asks,)
I was about 30' from my van when they sped off,
The windows were so tinted I couldn't see them inside, and i thought in my head " they might have a gun pointed at me right now". So i kept my drawn handgun at my side out of view.

At that distance i would have needed the sights on my 380 max to make a hit. I am glad I didn't have something like an LCP with almost flush sights. I don't think I would have needed a red dot like the one I use on my 365xl. But it wouldn't have hurt my draw, aim, or increased capacity.

Has me considering carrying more gun, and more ammo. Next time i might not get so luck and they might stick around to fight.

Sent from my moto g power (2022) using Tapatalk

The REAL question here is this: “Why weren’t you carrying the 365?”

 

[leVieux]

While I never said "brandishing" was wrong, aren't your two comments contradictory?



What term should be used instead of "brandishing" for this action?

>
Sadly, “brandishihg” is in the eye of the beholder or prosecutors these days!

 

[oldag]

I do not consider raising the shirt and grabbing the weapon while it still being holstered to be brandishing. Even a communist state like my former state of residence that does have a law on it wouldn’t see it as such.

Brandishing is flashing your gun without intent to draw or you do draw with a threat to intimidate. If you feel you may have to draw your iwb weapon, well lifting your shirt and placing your hand over your weapon in a ready position is just that…you’re getting ready to defend your life AND maybe a responsible gun owner is witnessing a real threat, telling the threat do not come any closer and is keeping himself legal by not pointing a gun at someone he isn’t completely sure needs to be shot.

It’s like with le or security. Someone looking at you like they are going to slit your throat and shit down your neck, walking towards you, with his hands in his sweatshirt pocket with an outline of something not his hands. No one’s going to say his or her hands won’t be on that holster.

Laws need to loosen up across the country if anything. Way more troublemakers than normal people these days.

So you show your weapon. The person stops initially. Then they walk up to you slowly, their hands at their side. Another step and they are within the threat range of wrestling for your gun. What do you do? Shoot them? Any onlooker (or someone watching a security camera tape should there be one) would say that person posed no threat to you.

Or do you wait until they grab for the gun, then risk a wrestling match?

So maybe you say you would backup to maintain a safe distance. And if you cannot back up (wall, car, whatever)?

I am not revealing my gun unless I have already made the decision that I am forced to shoot.

 

[Sam7sf]

While I never said "brandishing" was wrong, aren't your two comments contradictory?



What term should be used instead of "brandishing" for this action?

I can see why you would ask and thanks for pointing out what I left out: iwb he’s going to have to do those things to be ready to draw. He’s going to have to lift that shirt.

 

[Sam7sf]

So you show your weapon. The person stops initially. Then they walk up to you slowly, their hands at their side. Another step and they are within the threat range of wrestling for your gun. What do you do? Shoot them? Any onlooker (or someone watching a security camera tape should there be one) would say that person posed no threat to you.

Or do you wait until they grab for the gun, then risk a wrestling match?

So maybe you say you would backup to maintain a safe distance. And if you cannot back up (wall, car, whatever)?

I am not revealing my gun unless I have already made the decision that I am forced to shoot.

Just like with cam, I missed posting what I was thinking and thank you. I would not shoot in your scenario. Legally I’m not gtg. But thanks for bringing up backing up. I forgot to post that.

 

[ZX9RCAM]

What commonly used term should be used to describe lifting ones shirt to expose their weapon if not brandishing?

 

[Sam7sf]

My scenario was in my head iwb carry with backing up giving verbal commands to stop. But and people always need to remember: the threat needs to be obvious in this day and age.

Remember some of those threads we have had about was it a good or bad shoot? That guy that popped the other fellow on his porch with a ruger pc9? I still think that was a bad shoot. He might have squeezed into being legal but I think it was not handled right.

 

[Sam7sf]

What commonly used term should be used to describe lifting ones shirt to expose their weapon if not brandishing?

Getting ready to draw and he’s going to be attacked and it could seriously injure or kill him. Guy packing sees this. How is using your tools brandishing? Did the bg retreat before a draw was made?

Not everything should be viewed as brandishing.

 

[cycleguy2300]

A few weeks ago i walked up on my vehicle being broken into. As I approached my vehicle ( large work van) i noticed a car backed in next to me, and my van was moving. I hit the lock button on my keys, my van honked twice in response telling me my side door was open.
Automatically i stopped walking toward, and started side stepping. Didn't want to get any closer but wanted to get a better view. At the same time i drew my weapon out of my cargo pocket. It's a 380 max in a kydex pocket holster.
https://pjholster.com/products/pocket

The bad guys sped off before I could get a description. Don't know how many there were, or what color their skin was (first question everyone asks,)
I was about 30' from my van when they sped off,
The windows were so tinted I couldn't see them inside, and i thought in my head " they might have a gun pointed at me right now". So i kept my drawn handgun at my side out of view.

At that distance i would have needed the sights on my 380 max to make a hit. I am glad I didn't have something like an LCP with almost flush sights. I don't think I would have needed a red dot like the one I use on my 365xl. But it wouldn't have hurt my draw, aim, or increased capacity.

Has me considering carrying more gun, and more ammo. Next time i might not get so luck and they might stick around to fight.

Sent from my moto g power (2022) using Tapatalk

If force is justified, THREAT of deadly force is justified.

Having a gun out, but down is really no faster than it being in a holster. It sounds like you would have been justified in pointing the pistol so if they created a situation where deadly force is justified you pretty much just pull the trigger instead of bringing the pistol up, aquire the sights etc, etc.

You weren't wrong and I am sure have good reasons, but you would have been within the law and IMO in a better tactical position by having the gun pointed at the threat.

Надіслано з дому вашої мами за допомогою Tapatalk

 

[Sam7sf]

And cam, the point I’m ultimately trying to make is most of us train and try to think clear and healthy. I’m not afraid to shoot someone but I believe in looking for ways to get out with everyone alive. But this day and age so many crazy ass things going on and all a person can do is use the training and tools they have.

One person can say nope he brandished. Another can say well no he was looking at the random guy running at him with a baseball bat then in mid draw the guy changed direction screaming about his dildo collection.

 

[Sam7sf]

Is there any guidance other than deadly conduct? Cause it seems pretty black and white.