Multiple People Shot at Texas Church

[Texasgordo]

 

[BRD@66]

Wow, 40-50 new posts since I was here last, but nothing new.

 

[Kar98]

How does a question like that help anything?

Don't need an exact number. Just say, to the nearest dozen?

 

[Renegade]

Troll

Unless you can convincingly explain how one trains to outdraw a shotgun pointed at you from a few feet, your post was trolling. Cmon give it a go, I need a laugh.

 

[Davetex]

He should have used Web shooters like Spiderman.

 

[easy rider]

I'd like to get the thoughts from one of our favorite presidential candidates:

What a putz.

 

[Sock Puppet]

Some of you "experts" need to get out of your own way. Y'all making yourself look silly. As Will Rogers said, "Never miss a good chance to shut up."

 

[Darkpriest667]

On "The Five" yesterday, marie harf acidly stated and I'm paraphrasing: "Guns in church make me uncomfortable" or "There's no place for guns in church" yeah, ok, I don't recall 'precisely' what she said, but with a hateful look on her face, she let her sour, anti-gun (in this case in church) opinion be known.

So what, sit there and possibly be gunned down is the way to go?

It's noble and somehow better to be murdered without recourse to self defense?

WTF?

I'll take you with your revolver over an unarmed Marie Harf any day <3. Guns belong in the hands of citizens who take on the responsibility of the security and safety of everyone. Despite any disagreements that may be had here I believe we all have a similar sense of duty to ourselves, our families, and (in some cases a lesser extent) the public.

"A citizen accepts personal responsibility for the safety of the body politic, of which he is a member, defending it, if need be, with his life."

 

[Glenn B]

You would be correct. The video that was posted stated it was just an initial observation and opinion of what happened or something to that effect. He would be doing a more in-depth analysis later when more and better info comes out and the only reason he was doing the video was because of the live streamed video. He has analyzed lots (and I mean lots) of shootings all over the world. I would give him more credibility in an analysis of what went right and wrong than any armchair commando on the inner webs. Could he be wrong about certain things or should have made better suggestions, sure it’s possible he’s human. Same thing can most likely be said about any trainer out there. But he’s a source of knowledge that shouldn’t be discounted because one’s opinion of him isn’t highly regarded. It’s his subject matter knowledge that should matter here.

So, I am an armchair commando in your estimation. I will admit that since 2011, when I retired, I do like to spend time relaxing in a comfortable chair; however I believe I have the expertise to say what I said based upon the info gleaned from watching that video and stand by my assessment that he missed several things that were painfully obvious, some of which I pointed out in my prior post. Just in case you doubt my expertise, let me go over it in brief:

I have 32 plus years of federal LE experience including 4 years in the Border Patrol, 20 years with U.S. Customs Service, 18 of them with the Office of Investigations; and I also worked for DHS for the last 8 years of my career. All that included many years in each of: money laundering, anti-narcotics smuggling, DEA domestic anti-narcotics, and anti-terrorism national security investigative groups among others. All included many high risk operations such as controlled deliveries and felony search & arrest warrants.

I had collateral duties as a LE Firearms Instructor for about 16 of those years for handgun, shotgun, rifle; and several years for sub-machine gun. I also had collateral duties as a Confrontational Safety Awareness instructor for several years. All of that included giving tactical training relative to all those types of weapons and relative to entries, arrests and so forth.

Additionally, I was assigned to several temporary details throughout the U.S., including investigations of narcotics smuggling on the Mexican & Canadian borders, alien smuggling, alien hostage/kidnapping cases, all involving high risk operations/entries. I was one of only two Customs Special Agents selected to go to Haiti for a joint DEA/U.S. Customs training operation to teach narcotics smuggling interdiction and investigations to Haitian authorities. I was also temporarily assigned to several protective details with the Secret Service covering presidential primaries & elections, foreign dignitary visits and UN hoopla such as the 50th anniversary. In addition, I volunteered and was selected to perform duties as a Federal Air Marshal immediately after 9/11 and carried out those duties for approximately 5 1/2 months. Throughout my career, I was involved in several violent unarmed and armed confrontations but luckily never had to shoot anyone. The only person I ever shot was in an off duty shooting when two guys tried to mug me.

Subsequent to retiring I have I have maintained my NRA LE Firearms Instructor status. While I may have retired completely now, and enjoy the comfort of a beanbag (not an armchair) at the current point in my life, I assure you though I have just a bit of experience more than your average armchair warrior/commando relative to protective details, armed confrontations and armed tactics. I stand by my brief assessment and by the fact that your idol missed things in making in his tactical assessment. I also could point out one or two other things about which I believe he was flat out wrong. Now though that I have been relegated to the ranks of armchair commando by an expert on the experts like you, I will say goodnight, happy new year, feel free to keep adoring your idol and go right ahead to continue believing that anyone else who has anything of merit to add to this conversation is merely an armchair commando.

 

[oldag]

I must have missed that requirement in the Constitution.

The constitution also would forbid incarcerating a person. But when you are a convicted felon, you have chosen to forfeit some of your rights. The right to bear arms is among those rights forfeited.

 

[majormadmax]

meh 90% of the time I am open carry i don't get made.

Ironically, today marks the fourth anniversary of open carry in Texas, and not only have none of the pitfalls non-gunners claimed would happen have happened; but in four years of open carry my experience is that 90%+ of the general public never even notices!

 

[TxStetson]

Let’s try lightening the mood here a little bit.

 

[SQLGeek]

Lol...cmon dude, Harf is not the sharpest tool in the shed as the token dem. All she is doing is popping off the leftist talking points and most of those make you (her) sound really stupid when applied to this church shooting.

It's such a smoothbrained talking point, too. This incident is EXACTLY why. People get hung up on the propriety of bringing guns into a House of God and forget that the House still full of regular people. But then I think also that many that think this (not all) have this notion that good people don't normally carry guns.

 

[easy rider]

It's such a smoothbrained talking point, too. This incident is EXACTLY why. People get hung up on the propriety of bringing guns into a House of God and forget that the House still full of regular people. But then I think also that many that think this (not all) have this notion that good people don't normally carry guns.

I think many that think of "good people" look at it from an Utopian type of good, where everyone is good to everyone else. That works well in an "and they all lived happily ever after" fairy tale, but this world has never been a fairy tale world. Good people are those that are willing to do the necessary, and sometimes ugly, things to keep the world from turning terrible.

 

[SQLGeek]

I will say this without engaging in the back and forth that's been happening in this thread. This post isn't singling out anybody at all so don't take it that way.

There seems to be a general attitude some have that we should not try to breakdown or learn from these incidents and I think this is the wrong attitude to take. I get the concern with criticizing those who act, especially the everyday citizen. We should not be overly critical of the well intentioned and brave, especially when they perish heroically.

I like the Active Self Protection channel because he seems to try hard to talk about potential lessons learned without being overly critical.

An example I use is the 2014 shooting in Las Vegas where two shitheels murdered two LVMPD officers in a Cici's pizza and then went nutso in a Walmart. A citizen, Joseph Wilcox, responded by drawing his gun and running to the gunfire. He unfortunately made a fatal error in thinking the female perpetrator wasn't one of the bad guys and passed her by before she shot him. This incident was a tragic but poignant reminder to me that we must be judicious in when we intervene and very aware of all potential threats.

Lessons can, and should, be learned from every incident. Law enforcement breaks down incidents all the time and attempts to learn from them. The 1986 Miami Shootout. The 1997 North Hollywood Shootout. The 1970 Newhall incident in California where 4 CHP officers were shot to death is a classic example of where things went very wrong and many painful lessons were learned by law enforcement. Learning these lessons requires that an analysis is done to understand what went right, what went wrong and what changes need to be made.

I believe we can do the same. We should try to learn from this church shooting because we have an invaluable resource of video coupled with details about the incident. We can do so without being disrespectful to the memory of the heroes that died. And even if everything is done right, good people can still die.

At the end of the day, I am thankful this congregation had so many willing to answer the call and protect their flock.

 

[Renegade]

The constitution also would forbid incarcerating a person.

Nonsense. It only forbids cruel and unusual punishment.

But when you are a convicted felon, you have chosen to forfeit some of your rights. The right to bear arms is among those rights forfeited.

No you have not chosen that. Congress chose that in 1968. If felons are going to be prohibited from carry guns, than there is no such thing as Constitutional Carry in the USA.

 

[easy rider]

I'm not saying there isn't anything to be learned from the incident. What I was saying is that not everything in this situation is obvious. As far as I know, nobody can know what was going through anyone's minds.

Was this security force there only to watch for bad guys? Or, were they also there for the sermon? Attention to the sermon could draw ones attention away from a threat.

We don't know what was exchanged between the first person shot and the shooter, could that have thrown him off guard?

Good people die even when they do things right. Thankfully there were enough people in that church to stop the threat of more being killed or injured.

 

[MTA]

If I am able to dome a moving target with a round like .357sig when I am 71, I will be ecstatic.

Seriously some one on this thread needs to GTFO of here and go back to la la land

 

[jrbfishn]

The constitution also would forbid incarcerating a person. But when you are a convicted felon, you have chosen to forfeit some of your rights. The right to bear arms is among those rights forfeited.

That is a law outside of the Constitution. Not part of the Constitution. If I am wrong, please show me where it says you ever lose any Rights for breaking a Law.


Sent by an idjit coffeeholic from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

 

[JColumbus]

Jack (the fellow who shot the asshole) makes me proud as HELL to be a life long Texan. When the US goes to shit, Texas will be it's own country, and EVERYonew ill want in. We'll be shipping out the libs and buying up the guns that the rest of the country has to get rid of. NONE of this, if we turn blue. Get out and vote folks. Without every damned vote, Jack won't be allowed to further keep his flock of sheep and good wolves safe.