Hand Loads for Self Defense

[RACER X]

You bought expensive bullets designed especially for killing?

I bought defense loads from Wal-Mart, like the guy next to me, or anybody can go buy. Guy at Wal-Mart said a lot of cops use them. Good enough fur them, good enough fur me

I didn't make my own personal man killing ammo

 

[Younggun]

I bought defense loads from Wal-Mart, like the guy next to me, or anybody can go buy. Guy at Wal-Mart said a lot of cops use them. Good enough fur them, good enough fur me

I didn't make my own personal man killing ammo

Point being, if they want to make you look bad it won't matter what ammo you use.

 

[RACER X]

Agreed, they commented on zim man carrying his gun w the safety off, imagine what they would have gone after if he reloaded his item ammo.

I've read a few people on the m&p forum taking the safety off their guns vs leaving it off our buying one w/o a thumb safety, image the field day the lawyers will have w that one.

 

[dee]

You have more to worry about than ammo used if you are in a bad enough situation for the grand jury to decide on the road of prosecution.

 

[London]

If they questioned zimmerman leaving his safety off, attys would have a field day w somebody who loaded his man killer loads.

How did they do that if his gun had no safety (PF9)?

 

[yooper_sjd]

all I got to say is, same thing I use at range for punching holes in paper, I use for self defense. my own cast bullets.... round nose, 95 grain. alittle on hot side but still what I practice with.

 

[57K]

I loaded some SD loads for my 40 this past weekend. Has anyone ever loaded the Nosler 150g HP's? I don't really have any experience with them.

They were the only ones I could find when I bought them. Loaded them up pretty hot. Planning on testing on gel this weekend. Anyone know where I can buy some cherry Jello in bulk?

The NOSLER 150 gr. JHP is a good bullet and accurate, IME

If I lived in California or Massachusetts my opinion might be different. Since I live in N.Central Texas where the majority of likely jurers are going to be conservative, I don't concern myself about using handloads where I can give them the very best in quality control. There's another thing about expert witnesses like Massod Ayoob, they recommend that you only give personal information until your attorney arrives after being arrested in a defense shooting. If it's good enough for gays in the military, why not use the same approach: "Don't Ask, Don't Tell." If you use a commercially available JHP bullet in your handload that's loaded to a similar spec as its commercially available counterpart, whose gonna know the difference unless you tell them??? Forensics??? Not likely in a justifiable defense shooting in the state of Texas.

 

[Josh Smith]

Ah... so you're one of those who thinks that hunting puts you on par with the doctors who had careers of trearing gun shot wounds (the IWBA).

Look, the truth about handgun bullets is the wound tract is the same no matter what. The only difference is how deep it goes because they lack the velocity to do anything more than push a hole through tissue. They don't (can't) do the things rifle bullets can, and until someone comes up with a way to send a bullet with enough sectional density out of a handgun barrel at ovet 2000 feet/sec without having to make the handgun stupid big and keeping the recoil at a far less than insane level, they never will. Period.

FWIW, and much respect to Mr. Smith, penetration always has to come before expansion, especially with handguns. The truth is that in a properly designed handgun bullet, expansion is tailored to acheive the desired penetration.

Telling me that you loaded SD ammo and "tested" it in gelatin but not for penetration is like telling me that you but a car and took it to the strip, but not for acceleration. Basically, it's the kind of thing that I'm sure will give me some form of cancer, if it hasn't already.

Hello,

Let me clarify my position:

Penetration is good. In fact, I prefer it.

The "new standard" is 14+" of penetration in 10% ballistics gel.

The old standard was about 9" of gel, and this is what bullets like Winchester Silver Tip will do. (By the way, that white box hollowpoint by Winchester from Walmart is just the old Silver Tip without the nickel coating.)

The thickness of the average human torso is 24cm, or about 9.5".

Therefore, a frontal shot with a bullet penetrating 9" is about right.

The problem comes in when you start having side-on shots. The width of a human torso is around 16".

I used to do a lot of ballistics testing, and correlate it with others' tests and real world results.

Most shootings would have turned out just fine had the bullet penetrated less than it did. This is where my 9" mark comes from.

Overpenetration is an issue, and training should include dropping to a knee to make the bullet exit in an upward angle.

When penetration is needed, it's usually really needed.

Expansion is a bonus. It can usually be counted on these days, but even if the hollowpoint doesn't expand for whatever reason, it will do more damage than a standard round nose.

In my opinion, the best bullets out there are probably Hornady XTP. They have very controlled, 1.5x caliber expansion in a wide velocity range. One does not then need to be concerned with expansion and desired penetration may therefore be controlled with changes in velocity.

In summary:

A 9" penetrating bullet is probably OK for the majority of situations. A 14" penetrating bullet covers a wider range of situations, but overpenetration is a larger concern.

You should train to prevent collateral human damage in the event of a frontal shot as most bullets will penetrate deeper than a human torso these days. Taking a knee is one way to help offset damage from overpenetration.

I maintain that the best self-defense round is a jacketed truncated cone loaded by the factory. Currently, I know of none available and I elect to carry Federal Classic Hi-Shok as it comes in the police wrapper, or XTP, in my .45.

I'm not arguing that penetration should not come first. It should. I'm only saying that 9" is usually adequate. One should not, however, give up penetration to expansion, and I think that's what I needed to clarify in my original response.

Regards,

Josh

 

[Booyah]

I may be misreading you, but you seem to be making an almost a one-to-one comparison to the empirical measurements in ballistic gel testing to the thickness of human body parts...with regard to over-penetration? That is not what ballistic gel testing is intended to indicate. Anyone is free to accept or reject any ballistic standards they wish...but comparing 14" of penetration in ballistic gel to a 9.5" thick human torso is not a valid comparison and may indicate a misunderstanding of what ballistic gel testing actually indicates.

 

[Josh Smith]

Booyah,

No, it's not a direct comparison.

Gel can test against gel.

Torso can test against torso.

Properly calibrated ballistics gel only simulates human muscle tissue and is homogenous in nature. The human torso is not homogenous.

Gel gives somewhat of an idea of how the bullet will perform in the human body. Hunting with a particular load may give a better indication, but the only real indicator of how a bullet may work is how it's worked in the past.

I used to hang out on Evan Marshall's board... maybe a bit more than was healthy. I was obsessed with ballistics testing. I personally preferred water because it acts upon bullets in the most radical way of any medium. By that I mean, if a bullet is going to shed its jacket, it will do so in water before gel or super-saturated newsprint. By the same token, if a bullet is going to expand, it will do so in water before it will in gel or super-saturated newsprint.

The gel numbers for almost any bullet you care to look up are out there. I wanted to know if a bullet would hold together under less than ideal conditions, and what it would do if the envelope were pushed.

Additionally, many bullets that clog with denim and won't expand in gel will clear out and expand in water.

If a bullet clogs and doesn't expand in water, then likely it won't expand in anything after it's clogged.

I'm not presenting my argument well. I'm working a lot and have a newborn little girl along with a five-year-old boy. I love that boy, but he's a germ factory. Or rather, he goes to a germ factory every day. Nothing better to mutate germs than a classroom full of kindergarteners!

But I still love these discussions and will try to be more clear. If anyone's interested (and if I've not posted them already) I might see about posting my old water tests. Some bullets flat blow up in water when you'd not expect it from gel results.

I'll try to drink more coffee before posting next time. I'm only on my second cup now.

Suffice to say, I've done enough testing that I feel comfortable with any modern hollowpoint, or, in .380 if I must use one, I prefer the hard-to-find Santa Barbara ammunition. It's soft point (which doesn't help) but is also truncated cone.

Federal Classic Hi-Shok, Winchester Silvertip, and Remington standard hollowpoint, the grandparents of today's ammo, do just fine under most conditions. The age of the original Hydrashok and Black Talon brought about some solutions to problems with the previous generation of ammo, and evolving from those were the HST and Winchester Ranger.

The next generation, I'm convinced, will be homogenous, like Barnes Copper. Same size, but lighter and traveling faster. We're seeing this already in limited quantities.

I still think pure lead is probably best from revolvers, but soft lead hollowpoints just ding up too much in auto magazines. Copper is therefore the next logical choice.

Regards,

Josh

 

[Paul5388]

I have shot light and fast since the early 1970s when Lee Jurras was making Super Vels, but I used handloads to do it. With a Sierra 125 JHC at about 1600 fps, I shot a spike where I compensated for range and didn't need to. I was aiming at a doe and shot right over her back and hit the spike in the hams. He went down like he had been hit in the head, but not a bone had been hit! People try to say a handgun doesn't produce hydraulic shock, but what else would let me walk up and shoot him in the head? I was using a 28-2 with 6" barrel in 1972 down around Pearsall. As I have gotten older, I realize a 170 gr 358429 cast bullet at 1420 fps gives more penetration with close to the same velocity.

 

[Bambulance Man]

Hell No.

You may have more legal woes in california when you shoot someone, but here in Texas, you need to worry stopping the intended threat, and not the kid behind them. There are civil things to worry about from the families, however, if you don't have a justifiable reason for drawing and shooting, you shouldn't have drawn and shot.

Also where i suggest signing up for Texas Law Shield.

Texas law shield is a life saver, and a must have for the chl carrier. Both my wife and I have a year service that we renew

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

[azcooper]

I will never use reloads for my carry or home security and i have been reloading for years.

 

[franzas]

Here's the last email I got from TLS:
It should help to clear things up.

Shopping for ammunition can often seem like a daunting task. With consumer overload from the different brands and an abundance of uses, when you're looking at shelves of ammunition it can be difficult to figure out which type of ammo works best for your firearm and what is legal for you to have.
Common slogans on ammunition advertisements include: "This ammunition is designed for military specifications, for consistent stopping power," "Deep penetration and bullet expansion for the largest exit wound," "This ammunition has been improved with engineering genius, ensuring the ability to stop any threat," or "One of the few bullets to pass the FBI's testing requirements," followed quickly by, "Buy this ammunition!" These can make it difficult to figure out what will work best for you.
This may explain why one of the most frequently asked questions of our program lawyers is, "Does it matter what ammunition I use in my handgun from a legal perspective?" The short answer is: probably not.

Why do we say probably not? From the Texas law point of view, if you have been forced to use your firearm to defend yourself, others, or property, usually the ammunition used will not be the main focus of the legal inquiry. Generally, the focus is instead on the circumstances and facts surrounding "why" you had to fire your gun in the first place: i.e., was deadly force immediately necessary to defend yourself from death, serious bodily injury, etc.?

Ammunition Is Just A Tool
If you approach carrying a gun as a tool and load your gun with what you believe is the most effective ammo to do the job, it is highly unlikely that the focus of legal inquiry in Texas will be on your ammunition. This is not to say that if you have been forced into the court system after you have used your gun and are relying on a justification defense (such as self-defense), a prosecuting attorney will never attempt to argue that because you used a certain ammunition that you were looking for trouble. However, a competent defense attorney should be able to explain that a gun is just a tool, and you simply used the best tool to defend yourself. We recommend you use the best ammunition that you believe will protect you, period.

Evaluate Your Own Circumstances
When it comes to ammunition, a person should look for what suits their circumstances the best: whether that be full metal jacket, personal defense rounds, or any other legal ammunition. It may be that you are more concerned with stopping power rather than barrier penetration, or you may want frangible ammunition so as to minimize the chances of accidentally shooting through a wall and hitting a loved one. These are ballistic issues to think about when looking over the vast array of ammunition. Ammunition is nothing more than a means to an end of safety, merely a tool; so use the best legally available resources you can find for your situation.
On an important note, be aware that this addresses ammunition ownership only for Texas. Unfortunately, not every state can be as reasonable as ours. Some ammo may or may not be legal for possession or use in other states, so be sure to check the local laws to make sure what you are carrying is legal.

What About Ammunition Marked As Law Enforcement Only?
You may have seen ammunition with a statement on the packaging that reads "For Law Enforcement Only," or some other similar phrases. This ammunition is still legal for private persons in Texas to buy (provided that it is not armor-piercing handgun ammo). Manufacturers may make the choice to brand it as law enforcement ammunition for marketing purposes, or they may have been trying to avoid an excise tax. Either way, the end result is the same: it is legal to own and possess in Texas. After all, if this ammo is considered reliable enough for the fine men and women of law enforcement to trust their lives to, what better ammunition to trust with your family's safety?

What Is Illegal Ammunition Under The Law?
One kind of ammo that is not legal is armor-piercing ammunition. "Armor-piercing" handgun ammo is illegal to possess under both Texas and federal law. Texas Penal Code §46.01(12) defines armor-piercing ammo as handgun ammunition designed primarily for the purpose of penetrating metal or body armor and to be used primarily in pistols and revolvers. Federal law in 18 U.S.C. 44 §921(17)(B) defines armor-piercing ammo as a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, depleted uranium, or a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber, designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.

Find Out What's Best For You
Hopefully, the information provided here will allow you to focus on the task at hand rather than worrying about whether or not the ammunition you're using is legally correct. Remember, ammunition is nothing more than a tool. If you have a chance, experiment with different types of ammunition until you find what works best for you.

 

[blueridge]

Originally Posted by diveRN
This question is aimed at experienced hand loaders. For those of you who are skilled in assembling pistol rounds, do you load your own self defense ammo and carry it?

I always have...always will trust my own selected, handloads for defense. I know what is in them, and what they are expected to do. I varied them in my 1911, suspecting that some might have to be used to shoot through a car door or disable the radiator, while others were/are just hot anti-personnel loads. Thank God, never had to use them.

Tom Fowler

 

[57K]

Originally Posted by diveRN
This question is aimed at experienced hand loaders. For those of you who are skilled in assembling pistol rounds, do you load your own self defense ammo and carry it?

I always have...always will trust my own selected, handloads for defense. I know what is in them, and what they are expected to do. I varied them in my 1911, suspecting that some might have to be used to shoot through a car door or disable the radiator, while others were/are just hot anti-personnel loads. Thank God, never had to use them.

Tom Fowler

Welcome to the forum, Tom. I feel pretty much the same way. I'm the guy that's responsible for the quality control of my defense loads!

 

[DubiousDan]

The prosecutor could just as easily say " why did you use those Buffalo Bore +P killer rounds on that poor misunderstood ghetto dweller"? That said I usually use factory loads. However, if I didn't have anything else but my own loads, I would not hesitate to carry them. Folks, if they want to get you they will pull out all of the stops no matter what you use!

The guy at Walmart gun counter (he must be an expert) said they were recommended for self defense.

 

[DubiousDan]

Did ammo choice come up in the Zimmerman trial?

If during the initial investigation it was determined that he used a common factory load then it would probably be a non-issue and would probably not have come up.

 

[57K]

If during the initial investigation it was determined that he used a common factory load then it would probably be a non-issue and would probably not have come up.

This gets overstated a lot. The first thing to keep in mind if you're involved in a defense shooting is to make NO statements other than about your identity until you have an attorney present. After that, how are they gonna know that you used a handload unless you volunteer that information? As unlikely as it is to be prosecuted because you used a handload where the number of cases where it's even been an issue NATIONALLY, you could count on one hand. Then remember that we live in a FREE state, not MA, NY or CA. The odds of being prosecuted in Texas because you used a handload in a justifiable defense shooting are so minute that it would take a far better statistician than me to calculate such great odds against it even being an issue.

 

[LOCKHART]

57k is correct. If you are involved in a defense shooting, that is if you are the shooter,
tell the arriving officer the bare minimum of what happened, and that you feared for your
life. And then, SHUT UP! Cops are trained to take down everything you say and it will be
used against you. As far as ammo I carry in my self defense pistol, its just what the local
cops use, jacketed hollow points. I'm not about to givem any more info that they can use
to hang me with. I never carry hardball, because of the over-penetration factor. Cops are
protected if they shoot through a perp, we are not. Consider this when choosing your carry
ammo.