Hand Loads for Self Defense

[shortround]

It's easy when you write the script, but let's not pretend it's the real world. If you end up in a trial then it's not because of what bullets you use but either it can or cannot be an issue. One way of eliminating it as an issue is by using commercially available rounds that police find acceptable for duty use. The possibility that it will matter is very small but I on't see any reason to use hand loads in a carry pistol with all the options we have in factory ammo

The Police have no authority to specify any manner of self-defense rounds for private citizens -- that is in the realm of lawmakers. Texas does not prohibit the use of non-armor defeating hand loads for self defense. Lots of "gun gurus" only say to use commercial ammo because they make a living from hawking "commercial self-defense ammo."

So, I have some Speer 9mm Gold Dots, some Speer 9mm brass, and some CCI small pistol primers and assemble them with whatever brand of powder I have on hand. The bullets and cases recovered in a shooting will be Speer. GSR will only say that a round was fired -- not the powder used to propel that projectile. I doubt anyone can prove they were hand loads (set your CSI fantasies aside).

Further, If I were to assemble a load "hotter" than a +P+ load commercially available, I'd most likely blow my handgun to pieces.

The fundamental issue is shoot/not shoot. What the goblin was shot with has nothing to do with the legally defined decision to shoot.

 

[breakingcontact]

Did ammo choice come up in the Zimmerman trial?

Anyone?

 

[diveRN]

Did ammo choice come up in the Zimmerman trial?

Not that I remember, but I could be wrong. Did he use hand loads?

That said, I think comparing any future shooting to Zimmerman's case may be flawed. There were A LOT of things that he did wrong in that incident beginning by being out where he was, when he was. Personally, I believe the man was looking for trouble.

Zimmerman had a lot of options and made a lot of bad choices leading up to the "if I had a son" shooting. I think in the vast majority of cases where a CHL holder uses deadly force, it is truly the the last resort. He had numerous 'outs' and chose not to take them.

 

[Younggun]

Thread poison.

 

[diveRN]

Thread poison.

Huh?

 

[bones_708]

The Police have no authority to specify any manner of self-defense rounds for private citizens -- that is in the realm of lawmakers. Texas does not prohibit the use of non-armor defeating hand loads for self defense. Lots of "gun gurus" only say to use commercial ammo because they make a living from hawking "commercial self-defense ammo."

No one did claim the cops did or do have that authority. If you look that was in relation to being able to nullify any "mankiller" arguments the prosecution might present. I also never said squat about gun gurus.

So, I have some Speer 9mm Gold Dots, some Speer 9mm brass, and some CCI small pistol primers and assemble them with whatever brand of powder I have on hand. The bullets and cases recovered in a shooting will be Speer. GSR will only say that a round was fired -- not the powder used to propel that projectile. I doubt anyone can prove they were hand loads (set your CSI fantasies aside).

Yes if there are any other rounds left unfired they can but so what. That won't help you when you can't recreate the ballistics because you just threw some crap together. It also makes it harder to argue that you were just useing normal carry rounds when they want to call them mankillers.

Further, If I were to assemble a load "hotter" than a +P+ load commercially available, I'd most likely blow my handgun to pieces.

No that isn't how it normally works. It isn't one shot unless you way overload it. It's that it will fail sooner and possibly catastohicly. but it is unlikely to blow a gun up on the first try.

The fundamental issue is shoot/not shoot. What the goblin was shot with has nothing to do with the legally defined decision to shoot.

While that may be the biggest issue if someone questions that decision then everything come into play.

 

[Texasjack]

If they want to take you down, everything is fair game as an issue to use against you. Using "store bought" rounds won't protect you from that - after all, they would be rounds designed specifically for doing maximum damage.

On some subjects, it doesn't take much, if any, fact to form the foundation for an argument.

 

[bones_708]

If they want to take you down, everything is fair game as an issue to use against you. Using "store bought" rounds won't protect you from that - after all, they would be rounds designed specifically for doing maximum damage.

On some subjects, it doesn't take much, if any, fact to form the foundation for an argument.

While that is true using factory carry loads have a built in argument against the "mankiller" theme that has worked and is easy to deliver making the attempt singularly ineffective at this point.

 

[Booyah]

...using factory carry loads have a built in argument against the "mankiller" theme...

Do you honestly think that factory loads can't/won't be argued as mankillers? You mean like Black Talon's? I am afraid you are correct in one sense, that plaintiffs and their lawyers can and will make almost any ridiculous argument they think they can get away with, that might include picking on the choice of ammo or any number of other minor details...but I think you are fooling yourself if you think that buying factory ammo gives you any protection from said lawyers and their ability to make ridiculous arguments.

I guess I could contribute to the OP while I'm here. I stick with factory SD ammo for reliability reasons. I am confident that my reloads are safe and will use them without hesitation at the range...but defending your life is a whole different prospect.

 

[breakingcontact]

Thread poison.

Only if people take it there. Im not asking about the whole case. I just dont recall the case turning on his use of hollowpoints.

 

[Dawico]

These threads are funny to me. Make good solid points back and forth all day long but nobody seems to get convinced to switch sides. And that is fine. Everybody is going to do as they please anyways so there is no sense getting worked up over it.

That being said, I trust my handloads more than I trust factory ammo. Do I carry handloads? Nope. Why? I don't feel the need to. Factory ammo will serve the purpose and hasn't failed me enough to cause concern. Also I don't feel like a trial is a good place to justify my use of handloads.

 

[Younggun]

I don't recall any mention of him using hand loads.

 

[bones_708]

Do you honestly think that factory loads can't/won't be argued as mankillers? You mean like Black Talon's? I am afraid you are correct in one sense, that plaintiffs and their lawyers can and will make almost any ridiculous argument they think they can get away with, that might include picking on the choice of ammo or any number of other minor details...but I think you are fooling yourself if you think that buying factory ammo gives you any protection from said lawyers and their ability to make ridiculous arguments.

I guess I could contribute to the OP while I'm here. I stick with factory SD ammo for reliability reasons. I am confident that my reloads are safe and will use them without hesitation at the range...but defending your life is a whole different prospect.

Of course they can make any argument they wish. I didn't say that using factory ammo stops this. What I said was that the argument has been refuted successfully and repeatedly thus rendering that argument effectively dead. You might find some hack who tries it, but since it is so easy to refute it makes the other side look a bit witless. It's doubtful that it could be used effectively against anyone with a lawyer who still has a pulse.

 

[Booyah]

Of course they can make any argument they wish. I didn't say that using factory ammo stops this. What I said was that the argument has been refuted successfully and repeatedly thus rendering that argument effectively dead. You might find some hack who tries it, but since it is so easy to refute it makes the other side look a bit witless. It's doubtful that it could be used effectively against anyone with a lawyer who still has a pulse.

I have already cited one well documented historical case of a 'factory load' being the one that was deamonized as a COP killer. Granted that is only one case but it is real and it did have an affect on the industry at the time. I am more than willing to read up on some of these repeated examples of factory loads being used to refute the mankiller argument...can you cite any for me?

 

[Acera]

Ok, I like the idea of factory ammo, however......................

Not all factory ammo is created equally. Lets talk 10mm. There was a comment that if you use what LE uses, you should be good to go. Well what if what LE is not what is easily available or favorably compares to off the shelf store bought???

For example, the 'famous' FBI 10mm load was: 180gn JHP loaded to 950fps = 360 ft. lbs.

Now lets look at common commercial loadings.

Buffalo Bore: 180 gr. Jacketed Hollow Point 1,350fps/728 ft. lbs.
Double Tap: 180gr. JHP 1305fps/681 ft. lbs
Privi Partizan: 180gr. JHP 1083 fps/469 ft. lbs
Federal: 180gr. JHP 1,030fps/425 ft. lbs.
Hornady: 180gr. JHP 1,180fps/556 ft. lbs.
Winchester: 175gr. JHP 1290 fps/649 ft. lbs.
(could go on)

Ok, (not accounting for the often heard claim that the lower the power helped the performance) all the off the shelf, commercial loadings available to the general public are more powerful (some with 2x energy) than what the FBI developed and used. Does this place you at risk for a claim of overkill or recklessness? I am thinking that a person using a bullet traveling at 1,350 fps can assume, that with all other factors being equal, will cause more damage than a bullet traveling at 950 fps. If my hand-loads match the performance of the above commercial loadings why would I fare adversely in a court? What if I break out those old Black Talons and use them? Ooooohhhh, using a black tipped product taken off the market because of it's deadly image (well at least the label/marketing aspect). Must have been meaning extra harm due to his use of that rare, collectable, even banned in some places for civilians, and extremely lethal ammo.

Now I understand that if I load a soft lead wadcutter backwards and fill the cavity with mercury or something I might get in trouble, as that might appear to be excessive. But really???

Some one used to have the sig line on here something about (paraphrasing) "If it's a good lethal self defense action, it does not matter if it's a bullet or a weed whacker."

The method of the demise should matter less than the reason behind the action.

IJS

 

[bones_708]

I have already cited one well documented historical case of a 'factory load' being the one that was deamonized as a COP killer. Granted that is only one case but it is real and it did have an affect on the industry at the time. I am more than willing to read up on some of these repeated examples of factory loads being used to refute the mankiller argument...can you cite any for me?

You cited where? You mentioned Black Talon's which are not even made now and haven't been for a decade. What case were they used against a self defence shooter? Can I cite them? I guess I could but won't because they have been gone over ad nauseum and I just don't want to spend the time. Wasn't one even mentioned earlier in the thread?

 

[Booyah]

...Can I cite them? I guess I could but won't...

Very well understood...I'm sorry to have bothered you.

 

[rushthezeppelin]

So I'm wondering, would hand loaded rifle rounds (say .223 in an AR) in home defense have any potential of legal recourse? Considering almost all home defense scenarios are very clear cut I would think it wouldn't make much of a difference. There's got to be a case out there of somebody who has shot an intruder with their prize deer load in a bolt gun because it happened to be the nearest weapon and I can't imagine doing it with hand loaded rounds for an AR would be any different. Thoughts?

 

[robertc1024]

I wouldn't think twice about it. I've got hand loaded hollow points in my "convenient" pistol. If the BG comes into my house, where does it say what I can or can't shoot him with? To me, this whole argument is ridiculous. If I was sitting on the couch with a .50 BMG, and I shot him with that - it makes me fail because that's a "man-killer" round? pffft - please.

 

[bones_708]

So I'm wondering, would hand loaded rifle rounds (say .223 in an AR) in home defense have any potential of legal recourse? Considering almost all home defense scenarios are very clear cut I would think it wouldn't make much of a difference. There's got to be a case out there of somebody who has shot an intruder with their prize deer load in a bolt gun because it happened to be the nearest weapon and I can't imagine doing it with hand loaded rounds for an AR would be any different. Thoughts?

I think in this situation it would be the issue of forensic accuracy. If there is some question as far as distance or what have you then you are a bit at the mercy of the prosecutor. Now the likely hood isn't great and I would worry even less if you are not shooting self defence loads, but if it is a shooting that the authorities have doubts on..... who knows.