Active Shooter - Carson City IHOP

[The Lox]

Long gun carry in TX is pretty much unrestricted. You don't even need a CHL to do it. Open carry of long guns is the same, but expect the authorities to freak out because they're not familiar with it.

Technically, NFA stuff is illegal per state law, but the law gives you an affirmative defense against prosecution if you have it properly registered with the feds. Only really matters if it's noticed by a police officer that wants to make it an issue at all cost.

Non-standard containers are the way to go. Backpacks aren't all that uncommon these days, especially for the 20-something crowd. You can comfortably fit a 16" barrel bullpup like a MSAR STG-556 or (even more easily) a folding stock AK into a tennis racket case or book bag.

Loaded. With optics. Ready to roll. The only problem with it is time to deployment (and who carries a tennis racket around!?).

Doesn't 5.11 make some backpack that can carry an SBR sized rifle and be deployed rapidly? I seem to remember seeing it in the LAPolice gear catalogs. Can't remember what kins of weapon it was but probably a Sig556 or something like that because it allows for side folding...

 

[Tejano Scott]

Remember these thugs in Philly with the concealed AK(check 1:17 to 1:23 of the video)?

Scary Bus Shooting Caught On Tape: Philly Bus Stopped, Rear Door Opened And Gunman Opened Fire! - YouTube

 

[majormadmax]

Long gun carry in TX is pretty much unrestricted. You don't even need a CHL to do it. Open carry of long guns is the same, but expect the authorities to freak out because they're not familiar with it.

Except in San Antonio, where a city ordinance prohibits carrying loaded longarms...

Sec. 21-16. - Carrying loaded rifle or shotgun. It shall be unlawful for any person, other than duly authorized peace officers, to carry a loaded rifle or shotgun on any public street within the city or in a motor vehicle while the same is being operated on any public street within the city. (Code 1959, § 26-28) Cross reference— Regulation of firearms and weapons, § 21-151 et seq.

We don't need to argue the illegality of that city law, I think we are all well aware that it conflicts with state law; I am just posting it to hopefully save some folks from finding out the hard way...

Cheers! M2

 

[M. Sage]

Except in San Antonio, where a city ordinance prohibits carrying loaded longarms...

Sec. 21-16. - Carrying loaded rifle or shotgun. It shall be unlawful for any person, other than duly authorized peace officers, to carry a loaded rifle or shotgun on any public street within the city or in a motor vehicle while the same is being operated on any public street within the city. (Code 1959, § 26-28) Cross reference— Regulation of firearms and weapons, § 21-151 et seq.

We don't need to argue the illegality of that city law, I think we are all well aware that it conflicts with state law; I am just posting it to hopefully save some folks from finding out the hard way...

Cheers! M2

The ordinance is null, void and unenforceable. Texas has a preemption law, only the state can make laws regarding the possession, sale and carry of firearms.

 

[majormadmax]

The ordinance is null, void and unenforceable. Texas has a preemption law, only the state can make laws regarding the possession, sale and carry of firearms.

I am fully aware of Texas' preemption law and how it overrides this ordinance (and several others here in San Antonio), it has been discussed ad nauseum on this forum; but the fact remains that the law is still on the books in San Antonio and you can be arrested for it. Whether you are prosecuted for it is a totally different issue, but until such time that it is removed from being an active ordinance in this town, you can expect local law enforcement agencies to enforce it.

 

[M. Sage]

I am fully aware of Texas' preemption law and how it overrides this ordinance (and several others here in San Antonio), it has been discussed ad nauseum on this forum; but the fact remains that the law is still on the books in San Antonio and you can be arrested for it. Whether you are prosecuted for it is a totally different issue, but until such time that it is removed from being an active ordinance in this town, you can expect local law enforcement agencies to enforce it.

Haven't seen it yet (and I've seen opportunities to), and haven't heard of it, either. Just like their knife ordinance, which they actually can enforce...

Also, good luck to them when concealed is concealed. I'm not too concerned about an illegal law that has no teeth. Arrested, booked, released... Yawn.

 

[Mexican_Hippie]

...Arrested, booked, released... Yawn.

You forgot the rest... lawyered up and kicking some ass in court. If the city wants to knowingly break the law and violate the Texas Constitution then they deserve a major kick in the ass by the legal system, same as all other criminals. Violating the law is a crime, even if you're a city government.

I know, already discussed, but pisses me off to no end.

 

[majormadmax]

Arrested, booked, released... Yawn.

Well, if you think it'd be that easy; then why don't you champion and test case in getting the ordinance removed? Stroll through downtown with a loaded longarm, get "arrested, booked, released" as you so elegantly and brazenly put it, then stroll again into court, tell the judge how the law is wrong, he/she has an epiphany and recognizes your depth of knowledge of the law, then immediately calls Mayor Castro who holds an emergency meeting of the city council to have the law removed from the books! Then the city has a parade and gives you a key to the place, and that date will be forever celebrated as "M. Sage Day!"

By the way, have you ever been inside the central booking area of the jail downtown? I have, and honestly I'd do whatever I could to avoid the place. I know and agree that the city ordinance is not legal, but until such time as it is removed from the books it is still something we all have to contend with. And an arrest, even if later overturned, would have negative consequences for some of us whose employment depends on certain conditions. Even if temporary, it would not be something that would be easily rectified afterward once acquitted.

It is similar to the 'weapons prohibited' sign at the gates at Lackland AFB, which states that individual firearms cannot be brought on base due to 18 U.S.C. §930. That section only prohibits weapons inside Federal facilities, but base commanders use it instead of stating it is their policy that prohibits them because they know the vast majority of personnel won't question or critique them because of it.

There is a thread on gun related things that piss us off, these are just a few example of ones that do irritate me...

 

[M. Sage]

It wouldn't take an "epiphany" on a judge's part. It would just take showing him/her the preemption statute. Honestly, I doubt it would even get into court.

 

[Mexican_Hippie]

It wouldn't take an "epiphany" on a judge's part. It would just take showing him/her the preemption statute. Honestly, I doubt it would even get into court.

There's crappy judges too. You'd be surprised. A test case could ruin your career, and risk losing your CHL temporarily.

I am not a lawyer, but pretty sure you can file a case without having to get arrested. It just takes

 

[Tejano Scott]

Correct. I think this has been discussed in another thread. It would be nice to see one of these 2A Organizations(NRA,etc.) we all support champion declaratory judgment action against this local ordinance. No one needs to go to the pokey.

 

[M. Sage]

There's crappy judges too. You'd be surprised. A test case could ruin your career, and risk losing your CHL temporarily.

I am not a lawyer, but pretty sure you can file a case without having to get arrested.

"Test"? This isn't a vague law... I'm not even talking about the Texas Constitution that says the Legislature has this power. I'm talking State freaking Law that explicitly states that municipalities don't have the power to do what San Antonio thinks it can.

 

[noskilz]

I applaud Mr. Suarez on his own self-knowledge of his skill level with a handgun at 100 yards. He is an expert, well trained in his chosen field. However, to assume that some shop owner who owns a handgun can make a shot on a most likely briskly walking, hostile, armed target at 100 yards is like expecting Joe Fan at a football game to come out of the stands and replace Peyton Manning to rifle a 20 yard out pattern at the corner of the end zone to win the game. It ain't gonna happen.

 

[Jon Payne]

I watched 12 Joe Fans hit an IDPA target shaped piece of steel reliably at 100 yards this past Sunday in Houston TX.

I applaud Mr. Suarez on his own self-knowledge of his skill level with a handgun at 100 yards. He is an expert, well trained in his chosen field. However, to assume that some shop owner who owns a handgun can make a shot on a most likely briskly walking, hostile, armed target at 100 yards is like expecting Joe Fan at a football game to come out of the stands and replace Peyton Manning to rifle a 20 yard out pattern at the corner of the end zone to win the game. It ain't gonna happen.

 

[Mexican_Hippie]

I applaud Mr. Suarez on his own self-knowledge of his skill level with a handgun at 100 yards. He is an expert, well trained in his chosen field. However, to assume that some shop owner who owns a handgun can make a shot on a most likely briskly walking, hostile, armed target at 100 yards is like expecting Joe Fan at a football game to come out of the stands and replace Peyton Manning to rifle a 20 yard out pattern at the corner of the end zone to win the game. It ain't gonna happen.

I'm a bit out of shape, but I'm pretty sure I could throw a 20yd out pattern if the defense isn't setup and doesn't even know we're running a play.

Also, you'd have 6-15 "footballs" to chunk.

That's probably a better analogy.

I get the mental side of the conversation, but the reality is that it's really not that hard of a shot for someone who carries regularly and shoots periodically.

Added info: Drop on most handguns are between 6 and 12 inches at 100 yards, including 380s. Also, if you can hit a 4" target standing offhand at 25 yds, then you can hit a 16" target at 100yds, especially if you can rest it on something. It's not like you're lobbing bullets at a 1000yd target.

I'm not saying this to sound like "Billy-Internet-Bad-Ass" I'm saying it because I know people are capable of doing it. You should try it for yourself if you get a chance. You're capable of much more than you think.

 

[noskilz]

I watched 12 Joe Fans hit an IDPA target shaped piece of steel reliably at 100 yards this past Sunday in Houston TX.

Okay, I admit when I'm out of my league trying to argue shooting with Jon Payne. Kind of like taking on Kobe or Lebron in a nice game of one-on-one. But here goes.

I'm betting the Joe Fans who hit the IDPA target at 100 yards had taken instruction from you or Gabe or Junior or someone who really knows their stuff. Further, just to be in your class, they are probably already in the top 10% (or 5%) of proficiency for hand gun owners in the U.S. Now, if you told me that the store owner in Carson City had taken training classes from you or Gabe, then my opinion would change. I think what you do with your training of us regular citizens is great work. I wish every American would do it. But I know far too many people who just own guns and don't really practice or know how to operate them, much less hit a target at 100 yards.

I'm not sure I can agree with the tenor of Mr. Suarez' article that any person with a gun should confront an evildoer who is not in the process of harming one's immediate family. It's really hard to say that the store owner has a higher duty to protect strangers than they do to protect themselves. For instance, Gabe could have stressed the lack of preparedness of National Guardsmen to gather together while unarmed.

However, if the message was meant to be - "get yourself prepared" - then I certainly do agree. I wholeheartedly agree with the conclusion of Gabe's article: "Choose today to be the combatant. Prepare yourself physically, mentally and with the correct equipment. This will not be the last one."

 

[Jon Payne]

I don't think the article ever stated what the guy should have done, only possibilities and the other side of the coin. This has been an emotional debate for many all over the web.

Okay, I admit when I'm out of my league trying to argue shooting with Jon Payne. Kind of like taking on Kobe or Lebron in a nice game of one-on-one. But here goes.

I'm betting the Joe Fans who hit the IDPA target at 100 yards had taken instruction from you or Gabe or Junior or someone who really knows their stuff. Further, just to be in your class, they are probably already in the top 10% (or 5%) of proficiency for hand gun owners in the U.S. Now, if you told me that the store owner in Carson City had taken training classes from you or Gabe, then my opinion would change. I think what you do with your training of us regular citizens is great work. I wish every American would do it. But I know far too many people who just own guns and don't really practice or know how to operate them, much less hit a target at 100 yards.

I'm not sure I can agree with the tenor of Mr. Suarez' article that any person with a gun should confront an evildoer who is not in the process of harming one's immediate family. It's really hard to say that the store owner has a higher duty to protect strangers than they do to protect themselves. For instance, Gabe could have stressed the lack of preparedness of National Guardsmen to gather together while unarmed.

However, if the message was meant to be - "get yourself prepared" - then I certainly do agree. I wholeheartedly agree with the conclusion of Gabe's article: "Choose today to be the combatant. Prepare yourself physically, mentally and with the correct equipment. This will not be the last one."

 

[M. Sage]

I applaud Mr. Suarez on his own self-knowledge of his skill level with a handgun at 100 yards. He is an expert, well trained in his chosen field. However, to assume that some shop owner who owns a handgun can make a shot on a most likely briskly walking, hostile, armed target at 100 yards is like expecting Joe Fan at a football game to come out of the stands and replace Peyton Manning to rifle a 20 yard out pattern at the corner of the end zone to win the game. It ain't gonna happen.

Pretty sure I could get a hit (not saying it would be a good one) at that distance... I haven't had that kind of training, I'm just a schlub with a gun.

100 yards isn't all that bad, even with a pistol...

 

[ZX9RCAM]

Pretty sure I could get a hit (not saying it would be a good one) at that distance... I haven't had that kind of training, I'm just a schlub with a gun.

100 yards isn't all that bad, even with a pistol...

Don't forget you are shooting towards a building full of people behind glass (this is an assumption of course). Sure makes one think of what "could" happen.
Very tough call, hope I would do something, at the very least try to distract him.

 

[M. Sage]

Don't forget you are shooting towards a building full of people behind glass (this is an assumption of course). Sure makes one think of what "could" happen.
Very tough call, hope I would do something, at the very least try to distract him.

I'd rather not have him focused on me. If I don't feel comfortable taking the shot, I'd much rather try closing the gap.

IMO, most people think a 100 yard shot with a pistol is insane simply because they've never tried it, or shot at anything farther than about 10-15 yards. IMO, if you can hit a pepper popper at 50 yards, you can hit a human being at 100.

But you're right. Don't pull the trigger unless you're positive you're going to hit.