Active Shooter - Carson City IHOP

[Tejano Scott]

Honestly the biggest fear I have in this type of situation is will law enforcement/another civilian confuse me as an active shooter if I get involved? If someone else happens to walk by the parking lot and not see the guy with the AK kill victim #1, but they do see me rapidly close 100 yards and sneak up(preferably behind) this guy to end it- what decision does that person make? I know its a circular kind of logic, but I really do feel the circumstances would have to be nearly pristine for me to interject myself, my life, civil liability, etc into a situation where, at best, I'm dependent on making a 100 yard shot with a pistol against a better armed target.

 

[Jon Payne]

Well I didn't see this post until now. I'm mentioned in the article, so I won't say too much here. I survived an active shooter incident at the age of 14. I don't know what happens in every active shooter incident, but I do know what happened in mine, so yes been there survived that. You don't know when or where the fight will be and I think it's best to train to be prepared.

 

[Texas42]

1. I hope I'm never critical of people who choose not to get into a gunfight. I have been in that kind of situation. The most dangerous thing I could do right now is stick myself with a contaminated needle and give myself HIV or hepC. Never been shot at. Loves guns, but I've got real time commitments. I'm never going to have the time or money to be rambo. I can reasonably assume that I have much more life insurance than 99% of my collegues, but I'm scared that amount will be painfully small for my wife if I do die cause some oxygen theif decides to go crazy.

2. I hope I never get into a gunfight. Enough said.

3. Screw the 380 pocket pistol. I'm carrying a real gun that holds 15 rounds whenever I can. A rifle isn't a terrible thing to have around. Thats something to think about. I've never shot a pistol at 100 yards. I think I could hit paper at 100 yards with my Glock at a one-way shooting range, but thats about it.

I'm just rambling. I'd like to think I could stop a murderer from killing others, but I don't know.

 

[TheDan]

Bunch of quarterbacking from the couch in the article.

yep, and also in this thread... I have no idea what I would have done. I wasn't there and too many variables uncounted for. I know I wouldn't be comfortable shooting at a target (any target) at 100yd with a typical carry pistol unless said target is in an open field with no danger of my misses hitting anything.

 

[majormadmax]

Not saying you should base your decision on this. Just that dammed if you do dammed if you don't.

That pretty much describes any situation where you have to employ lethal force against a threat. There is no simple solution to such a problem, which is why we discuss these things. God willing none of us will have to deal with such an encounter, but if it does happen then hopefully the thoughts expressed here will help a person decide their course of action a little more quickly and wisely. It might be "Monday morning quarterbacking" but it is an excellent opportunity to think through the pros and cons of your reaction if you were found in the same position.

I don't think any of us can say in advance what we'd do if this were to happen to us, there are too many variables involved that would affect how we decide...

Still, don't discard this as a futile exercise. The military and law enforcement are constantly thinking through and training for such scenarios, and as CHL holders we should as well!

Cheers! M2

 

[Mexican_Hippie]

I'm pre-emptively removing my post.

There's some great thoughts in here and don't want to take away from them.

[Delete me]

 

[Mic]

So, my takeaways...
1) Get out for some more training. And more training. And....more training.
2) Mix in some long distance shots.
3) Mix in some activities that will get the heart pumping heavily while shooting.
4) Know what you can and cannot do.
5) Get a long gun to keep in the truck (already planning this).

Aside from that, I'll never judge somebody for not getting into something that they aren't prepared for. You owe it to nobody but your family to defend. If you defend others, I'll consider you a hero! But I won't expect it from you.

I do hope that if I'm ever faced with the situation, I will have the courage and intelligence to know my limits and get involved if the situation is within them.

 

[double_r76]

Honestly the biggest fear I have in this type of situation is will law enforcement/another civilian confuse me as an active shooter if I get involved?

Huge +1. One of my biggest fears regarding intervention is expressed above.

The other huge fear is that you don't know if the shooter is truly acting alone. We now know that is the case, but what if you go running up and the getaway driver drops you DRT while you're focused on the MWAG? I've played out the convenience store robbery scenario in my head a million time, where I don't get involved until the robber looks like he's going to shoot the clerk. Most of the time the "lookout" guy executes me because he didn't appear to be associated with the robber, but that doesn't stop me from intervening the next time I play it out in my head. I just try to do a better job of assessing the situation.

With my current position as a federal law enforcement officer, I've got no duty to intervene. It's a personal decision I will have to make as the situation unfolds. I can tell you that I am mentally prepared to use deadly force to save lives.

-Randy

 

[The Lox]

Honestly the biggest fear I have in this type of situation is will law enforcement/another civilian confuse me as an active shooter if I get involved? If someone else happens to walk by the parking lot and not see the guy with the AK kill victim #1, but they do see me rapidly close 100 yards and sneak up(preferably behind) this guy to end it- what decision does that person make? I know its a circular kind of logic, but I really do feel the circumstances would have to be nearly pristine for me to interject myself, my life, civil liability, etc into a situation where, at best, I'm dependent on making a 100 yard shot with a pistol against a better armed target.

Huge +1. One of my biggest fears regarding intervention is expressed above.

The other huge fear is that you don't know if the shooter is truly acting alone. We now know that is the case, but what if you go running up and the getaway driver drops you DRT while you're focused on the MWAG? I've played out the convenience store robbery scenario in my head a million time, where I don't get involved until the robber looks like he's going to shoot the clerk. Most of the time the "lookout" guy executes me because he didn't appear to be associated with the robber, but that doesn't stop me from intervening the next time I play it out in my head. I just try to do a better job of assessing the situation.

With my current position as a federal law enforcement officer, I've got no duty to intervene. It's a personal decision I will have to make as the situation unfolds. I can tell you that I am mentally prepared to use deadly force to save lives.

-Randy

Took the words right out of my mouth, I was thinking about this as I entered an IHOP the other day with the wife. My biggest concern is getting shot by someone else thinking I am the bad guy, either another CCW holder, or a cop who is rushing to the scene all amped up and doesn't know good guy from bad. Not sure I could take the time to dial 911 and tell them I am on scene and not to shoot me before taking action. That is just my concern, having never been in the situation to make the call, I have no idea what I would do until the occastion arose. All I can do is practice shooting, and hope that if the time comes I can make it out on the living side...

 

[TexasRedneck]

Time and again....everything depends on exactly what is going down at the time. NONE of us knows how we'll react unless we've been there. I've had guns drawn on me, have drawn on others - and had to pull the trigger on one. Not something I *EVER* want to go through again - but if the same situation arose, I would.

This is why I alway hate getting drawn into these kinds of conversations - because there is no "right" answer. There's way to many variables to ever really give a simple answer - and trying to go through all the convolutions is frankly a waste of time, because it's *never* gonna go down the same way as you've discussed. Best thing you can do is have your own "punch list", think it through carefully - and then keep in practice.

 

[Vaquero]

Have yall shot at a 100yd target with a pistol? How high do you hold?

 

[Mexican_Hippie]

It depends on the pistol and the load but my SWAG is about one foot of drop at 100 yards.

Sig P220 held right at the top of the back of a doe about 100 yds out produced a very dead deer with a hole in the lower third of the chest (where the heart resides).

 

[double_r76]

Have yall shot at a 100yd target with a pistol? How high do you hold?

I hold at the top edge of a pepper popper for scoring zone hits with M882 ammo out of my issue M11.

Probably 6-10" over the popper with my 147gr minor pf loads out of my Glock 34.

 

[Acesn8's]

It depends on the pistol and the load but my SWAG is about one foot of drop at 100 yards.

Sig P220 held right at the top of the back of a doe about 100 yds out produced a very dead deer with a hole in the lower third of the chest (where the heart resides).

haven't seen that acronym used in quite a while .
Thanks for the memories

 

[M. Sage]

This is something I've given thought to many times over the years. I've got to say that for me, the decision is to engage and take out at all costs if there's any possible way. Every second that passes is another hostage that can die. If a jury later decides I was "wrong", then so be it.....in my heart, I'll have done my duty.

This is me, too. This isn't everybody, though. Not everybody has it in them to run towards instead of away, and I honestly can't fault them for it.

Especially agree with what Suarez says about shooting in the back of the head. My ideal opponent in a gun fight is someone that doesn't know he's in one.

I'd only shoot someone in the back if I couldn't catch him asleep...

 

[M. Sage]

Another option, and there are a few of us that have played with the idea:

The hell with a concealed pistol. Go concealed rifle! It can be done (I've done it), it's just cumbersome. But when when it hits the fan, would you like to have something that makes 100 yards an easy shot? Something that does a lot more damage? Something that has 30 rounds on tap?

Folding-stock AKs worked the best for us, but bullpups like the AUG can be done. Other folding stock rifles with shortish to truly short barrels are ideal in my opinion and experience.

 

[jr urbina]

Another option, and there are a few of us that have played with the idea:

The hell with a concealed pistol. Go concealed rifle! It can be done (I've done it), it's just cumbersome. But when when it hits the fan, would you like to have something that makes 100 yards an easy shot? Something that does a lot more damage? Something that has 30 rounds on tap?

Folding-stock AKs worked the best for us, but bullpups like the AUG can be done. Other folding stock rifles with shortish to truly short barrels are ideal in my opinion and experience.

I like that line of thought. A folding stock AK or a red dot sighted pistol.

 

[The Lox]

Another option, and there are a few of us that have played with the idea:

The hell with a concealed pistol. Go concealed rifle! It can be done (I've done it), it's just cumbersome. But when when it hits the fan, would you like to have something that makes 100 yards an easy shot? Something that does a lot more damage? Something that has 30 rounds on tap?

Folding-stock AKs worked the best for us, but bullpups like the AUG can be done. Other folding stock rifles with shortish to truly short barrels are ideal in my opinion and experience.

I take it there is no laws against that? Certainly a folding stock AK or Draco SBR can be tucked into a backpack, or a Tennis racket bag, just wondering what the legality of carrying like that would be....

 

[M. Sage]

I take it there is no laws against that? Certainly a folding stock AK or Draco SBR can be tucked into a backpack, or a Tennis racket bag, just wondering what the legality of carrying like that would be....

Long gun carry in TX is pretty much unrestricted. You don't even need a CHL to do it. Open carry of long guns is the same, but expect the authorities to freak out because they're not familiar with it.

Technically, NFA stuff is illegal per state law, but the law gives you an affirmative defense against prosecution if you have it properly registered with the feds. Only really matters if it's noticed by a police officer that wants to make it an issue at all cost.

Non-standard containers are the way to go. Backpacks aren't all that uncommon these days, especially for the 20-something crowd. You can comfortably fit a 16" barrel bullpup like a MSAR STG-556 or (even more easily) a folding stock AK into a tennis racket case or book bag.

Loaded. With optics. Ready to roll. The only problem with it is time to deployment (and who carries a tennis racket around!?).

 

[Mexican_Hippie]

AR Pistol?

And don't listen to people fear mongering about being blind and deaf. I have first hand experience shooting in both vehicles and buildings at night. You aren't going to be blind and deaf. You wont even notice your ears ringing until later. Just focus on your sight(s) and your trigger finger and worry about the rest later.