1911 Fans Celebrate, Marine Corps adopts a .45 again.............

[Bithabus]

My favorite lines from the TV show "The Unit" (written by Eric Haney, the first CSM of Delta):

Working with a female undercover operative, a Unit operator asks, after seeing her draw her weapon: "You carry a .45, not a 9mm?". Her response: "Which would you rather get shot with?"

Upon initiation to The Unit, a new operator is shown a cabinet full of pistols and told to choose one for personal carry. When he picks up a 9mm, a seasoned Unit operator remarks to him "We carry these weapons to kill people, not hurt their feelings."

I'll stick with my .45's.

Yeah, copying what you see on TV is a great way to make decisions.

 

[Danton]

Yeah, copying what you see on TV is a great way to make decisions.

I have a bit of experience, in the military and out...at least enough to make my own decisions on carry, and not take my cues from a TV show. It was meant as a bit of levity. Thanks for the incredibly prescient and insightful advice, though.

But as I mentioned, the show was written by Eric Haney, the first CSM of Delta Force. After reading his books, most notably "Inside Delta Force", the show definitely reflects his, and Delta's views on a lot of things (or at least the Delta he was part of). Based on your admonishing and condescending comment, I assume you probably have more experience in shooting, training and combat than an operator like he does. I definitely do not. So when a living legend in the spec ops community ecpresses a view on weapons, tactics, etc, even if the medium is a TV show and the comments are tongue-in-cheek, I listen...not to the point, as I mentioned, of basing my carry decisions on. But I do listen.

And I'll stick with my .45's.

 

[Bithabus]

I have a bit of experience, in the military and out...at least enough to make my own decisions on carry, and not take my cues from a TV show. It was meant as a bit of levity. Thanks for the incredibly prescient and insightful advice, though.

But as I mentioned, the show was written by Eric Haney, the first CSM of Delta Force. After reading his books, most notably "Inside Delta Force", the show definitely reflects his, and Delta's views on a lot of things (or at least the Delta he was part of). Based on your admonishing and condescending comment, I assume you probably have more experience in shooting, training and combat than an operator like he does. I definitely do not. So when a living legend in the spec ops community ecpresses a view on weapons, tactics, etc, even if the medium is a TV show and the comments are tongue-in-cheek, I listen...not to the point, as I mentioned, of basing my carry decisions on. But I do listen.

And I'll stick with my .45's.

There is plenty of real research out there about concerning the caliber debate. I'm sure Eric Haney is good at shooting people, but that does not automatically make him an expert in other areas.

 

[TexasRedneck]

There is plenty of real research out there about concerning the caliber debate. I'm sure Eric Haney is good at shooting people, but that does not automatically make him an expert in other areas.

Hmmm...."scientific tests", ballistic tests, etc. vs real-life experience.

Ah dunno.....call me a dunderhead, but ah'll listen ta the experience first. Y'see, I ranted bloody hell when all the PD's were going to 9mm, to the point of callin' more than one Police Chief a freakin' idiot (in at least one instance, I did that literally). When they suddenly started changin' back away from the 9's a few years later, I think they made my point for me.....

But go ahead and listen to the "easier target reaquisition" folks!<G>

 

[firefree]

As someone who recently got out of the Marine Corps (mid April) and the majority of my time was working in the armory of an infantry battalion I figured I should chime in. First most Marine armorers absolutely hate working on the Beretta M9, we had so many problems and were constantly changing out parts, I will say most of the problems were user generated but pretty consistent, broken extractors and springs and cocking on safe were the main issues. I am not saying I do not like the Beretta I actually do, was my T/O weapon and always had one issued to me so that's what I would do my pistol qualification with, IMHO I would have rather had a 1911 but that's what we had so we made due. Second MARSOC has had the 1911's for awhile now I know for a fact that there are no Beretta's sitting in the armory of 1st MSOB and the friends I had working there said they much preferred having the 1911's (this coming from the armorer side of the house as well). Not trying to start a debate on which is better etc, simply stating that 1911's have been in service in recent years, definitely in the MSOB community as well as a few other groups, can't vouch for any other services but I've gotta imagine the SEAL's and other special op's groups are rocking them as well. I will hit up my buddies and ask about the contract to see if I can find out any inside scoop.

Hey TX
Question for you, someone that has been there. I've seen pictures of some M9's after being in the field for awhile. They look like hell. Really beat up. I wonder what is your opinion on what condition a poly frame handgun would be in after the same use?
In my military time we had S&W .38s. We beat them hard but its hard to stop a steel revolver. Our M 16's were hand-me-downs from the Army. The pre forward assist A1. I don't want to start a flamable plastic vs steel war here but truly wonder how much a poly gun can take. How many times can a pack laden 180lb solider roll over or drop on a pistol before its toast? You seem to be in a good poition to know. Thanks

 

[Mexican_Hippie]

45 vs 9mm, polymer vs steel, 1911 vs Glock...this thread has it all.

If only I had one if these with one 9mm barrel, one 45 acp barrel, polymer frame made by Glock and steel slide made by Colt.

I'd be invincible!!!!!

 

[Mexican_Hippie]

Just a thought, but you could also "dual wield" a Glock in one hand, 1911 in the other.

You'd be Johnny Super Operator Guy.

Honestly, and all BS aside, I have no doubt that I could hold off a "normal" attack with a decent .22 pistol if I had to (not my first choice, but making a point). I could very easily and quickly put about 5-10 rounds in someone's head, and I can guarantee you that would stop them.

All this talk between calibers and styles is really BS. It's like olympic competitors arguing over what specific technique changes is better to get that last 5 thousanths of a sec shaved off. Sure there's differences, its just that in reality for a proficient, trained shooter they dont matter.


Here's an interesting study...http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866

 

[TexasRedneck]

To be sure - shot placement is key. I just find that as I get older, I may not be as accurate as I once was, so I've gotta concentrate on them bigger holes.

An' not that it has any bearing here, but I'm STILL waitin' on a quote on a pair of them dual-barrel .45's w/custom serial #'s.

Yeah, really. Don't ask why - couldn't tell ya, but what the hell, why not?

 

[Vaquero]

To be sure - shot placement is key. I just find that as I get older, I may not be as accurate as I once was, so I've gotta concentrate on them bigger holes.

An' not that it has any bearing here, but I'm STILL waitin' on a quote on a pair of them dual-barrel .45's w/custom serial #'s.

Yeah, really. Don't ask why - couldn't tell ya, but what the hell, why not?

Kinda off topic, but. Would the twin barrel pistol be a machine gun if it fires two bullets with one pull of the trigger?

on the phone

 

[firefree]

Ask yourself, when was the last time you heard or read of someone shooting or holstering before work their 1st Gen. Glock 17?
Now ponder the same question in reference to a 1911.
enough said.

 

[TexasRedneck]

Ask yourself, when was the last time you heard or read of someone shooting or holstering before work their 1st Gen. Glock 17?
Now ponder the same question in reference to a 1911.
enough said.

Idiots shouldn't be given guns.

THAT is the bottom line. A ND is just that - stupid in action. Don't blame the gun because SOMEONE actuated that trigger.

 

[SIG_Fiend]

But as I mentioned, the show was written by Eric Haney, the first CSM of Delta Force. After reading his books, most notably "Inside Delta Force", the show definitely reflects his, and Delta's views on a lot of things (or at least the Delta he was part of). Based on your admonishing and condescending comment, I assume you probably have more experience in shooting, training and combat than an operator like he does. I definitely do not. So when a living legend in the spec ops community ecpresses a view on weapons, tactics, etc, even if the medium is a TV show and the comments are tongue-in-cheek, I listen...not to the point, as I mentioned, of basing my carry decisions on. But I do listen.

And I'll stick with my .45's.

I read the book and enjoyed it as well as the TV show. That being said, his reputation is apparently suspect, so who knows what is real in that book and what isn't. He is a known former member of that unit, but I've heard many claims that a lot of his stories are possibly embellished. Who knows? There are far more knowledgeable, vetted, more qualified sources to trust IMO. People like Larry Vickers, Kyle Lamb, Pat McNamara, Mike Pannone, etc. Heck, there is a former unit member (that is a wealth of knowledge) registered here on this site, though he doesn't usually get into forum posting much for this very reason. Too many people trade in anecdotes, analogies, emotions, and misguided personal beliefs or experiences to get to the real facts.

The old "Geneva/Hague Convention" fallacy about JHP ammo is categorically untrue. The US did not sign at the 1899 Hague Peace Conference. The US did however sign the 1907 Hague IV Convention, HOWEVER, this did not state that JHP/open tip ammo was not legal: The Avalon Prject - Laws of War : Laws and Customs of War on Land (Hague IV); October 18, 1907

-There was a 1985 Judge Advocate General opinion issued stating:

"…expanding point ammunition is legally permissible in counterterrorist operations not involving the engagement of the armed forces of another State."

There was also a 1993 JAG opinion issued for USSOCOM to procure Winchester 230gr JHP Black Talon's for the H&K MK23.

Bottom line, we generally seem to "play nice" at face value and somewhat abide by things we have and have not signed. Ultimately, we are currently not fighting a uniformed military force of another country/nation. We are fighting terrorists/insurgents, therefore the Hague Conventions don't apply anyways, never mind the fact we never signed the 1899 version that prohibited expanding ammo. No, I think the lack of widespread adoption of JHP's by our military is more a matter of cost and institutional inertia. It would be a huge PITA to develop standards, test, award contracts, acquire, and convert the entire military over to something completely new, not to mention the international flack it would garner. So from a leadership standpoint, the ends probably doesn't justify the means. That's just a guess on my part, but would seem to be a logical one.​

 

[irishthunder50]

Im a Small Arms/Artillery Repairmen in the Army. I just completed my 2nd deployment. On my first deployment to iraq i was invited to shoot on the Special Forces compound for a day. The two SF troops I was shooting with that day we're both carrying Sprinfield 1911s though that particular SF unit was working out a deal with les baur. This deployment in afghanistan I shot with the SF guys again one day and they all were carrying Glock 19's. So two different SF Units two different side arms. Now I have a good buddy i went to Small Arms school with and he was placed in a SF unit. In his Arms room he has a mix of Sigs, Springfields, and Glocks. Dont know about the Marines but i assume its similar that the Special Forces unit are totally different in what they have access to depending on which unit has what. When I went to school we didnt learn anything about the 1911 so when my buddy got to his SF unit they sent him to different schools to learn on everything they have. But they have the budget to do that.

Point being I dont ever see a branch of the millitary as a whole switching over to the 1911 again. SF units will always change what they carry as newer and newer stuff comes out. My other good buddy that used to be Marine Force Recon said he used to have a H&K when he was in. And honestly I dont see a problem with the beretta. I am the only Small Arms repairmen in my unit so I am responsible for over 3600 weapons. A little over 700 of them are Berettas. Looking through my annual inspection log real quick i see that i found 2 with cracked slides, one needed a new rear sights, 4 guide rods, and 1 cracked safety. Would I like to see 1911s back in the millitary, of course but i dont see it happening.

 

[40Arpent]

Ask yourself, when was the last time you heard or read of someone shooting or holstering before work their 1st Gen. Glock 17?

I'll ask myself that question when you rewrite it in proper English so that I can understand what the hell it is that I am asking myself.

 

[Pappy]

Then why did we move away from horses?

Apples and oranges.

Let's keep the Colt 1911, oh, and it's Made in America. And if our government is going to award contracts, keep the money here...

 

[Acera]

Originally Posted by firefree
Ask yourself, when was the last time you heard or read of someone shooting or holstering before work their 1st Gen. Glock 17?

I assume that you are trying to say the Glock is safer??


Remember this quote? I know it's not a 17, but all their handguns work basically the same way.

"I am the only one in this room, I know of, professional enough to carry a Glock .40...............Bang"

Most of the ND stories I hear about from LEOs involve Glocks. Usually putting it in the holster with their finger inside the trigger guard.

However I would like to know the incident rate of accidental discharges between the 1911 style and Glock pistols.

 

[40Arpent]

However I would like to know the incident rate of accidental discharges between the 1911 style and Glock pistols.

I have 1911's and Glocks, and have only negligently discharged one of my 1911's. So, that proves that Glocks are indeed safer.

 

[Mexican_Hippie]

...plus its on the internet so it must be true

 

[Danton]

I read the book and enjoyed it as well as the TV show. That being said, his reputation is apparently suspect, so who knows what is real in that book and what isn't. He is a known former member of that unit, but I've heard many claims that a lot of his stories are possibly embellished. Who knows? There are far more knowledgeable, vetted, more qualified sources to trust IMO. People like Larry Vickers, Kyle Lamb, Pat McNamara, Mike Pannone, etc. Heck, there is a former unit member (that is a wealth of knowledge) registered here on this site, though he doesn't usually get into forum posting much for this very reason. Too many people trade in anecdotes, analogies, emotions, and misguided personal beliefs or experiences to get to the real facts.

Hey Sig - why do you always gotta show me up? I thought we made nice last time? Allright, fair enough: Out with Haney and in with the new breed of operator. I am familiar with Larry Vickers, who is outstanding, but not the other gentlemen you mentioned. I'll get on it post haste.

Based on the book "Rogue Warrior" by Richard Marcinko - the later disgraced first commander of ST6 - I always assumed the anti-terror units of spec ops were using JHP's since their foundings, at least in dedicated anti-terror operations. Marcinko stated that the team, in conjunction with an ammo manufacturer (who he did not name), developed their own 9mm JHP's that could "take half a man's head off". There's no shortage of bluster in the book, and I'm sure that section is not immune. Fun read, though.

 

[SIG_Fiend]

Not trying to pick on you Danton. Just trying to post as factual information as I have.

The funny thing is, it's pretty typically the same general story when you find a supposed high speed/former high speed person that is surrounded in controversy. There are a number of them out there, some of which have started and run very successful businesses, and IMO the controversy is usually based on some truth about that individual and their past. There are plenty of legit former high speed types that seem to get along just fine without generating a controversial following and becoming the "cult of personality". Heck, even Vickers who is oft maligned as being arrogant (mainly other people talking about him and what he teaches, that are being arrogant), recently made an announcement on M4C that people should stop getting caught up in jumping on bandwagons (including his), and focus instead on what really matters.