Army chooses Sig Sauer to build its Next Generation Squad Weapon

[robertc1024]

I disagree with the armor statement,the huge increase in kinetic energy should incapacitate any human target regardless of penetration, The gain against barrier and light vehicle penetration is substantial. I carried an M-14 in the early 70's and it is doable.I agree that the weight should be offset by reductiion of the crazy stupid infantryman loadout they suffer today! The only disadvantage I see is the reduction in ammo carried into the fight

I looked up ballistics based the specs on the commercial ammo 150g bullet at ~3000 fps vs. a 55g 5.56 bullet at ~3000 fps. 2651 ft-lbs of energy vs. 840 ft-lbs at 100 yards. That's a monumental increase.

 

[kyletxria1911a1]

Wounded enemies are also a drain on our resources. People tend to get up in arms if a battle is one and you walk the battlefield hole punching the foreheads of anybody still moving. So instead we dump resources in to healing the people that tried to kill us.

Would be much easier if they were dead when we got to them.

Agreed I thought that the first rule of war it's not my job to die for my country but make you die for yours.
Maybe times have changed but when I Was in I was taught that anyone trying to kill me my first and only job was to kill them first.

.seems like the woke think war is humane its not I want the best round fo killing.
I want one and done. My mind set is a wounded enemy behind me is just as dangerous as the one in front of me

 

[kyletxria1911a1]

I looked up ballistics based the specs on the commercial ammo 150g bullet at ~3000 fps vs. a 55g 5.56 bullet at ~3000 fps. 2651 ft-lbs of energy vs. 840 ft-lbs at 100 yards. That's a monumental increase.

I vote 308

 

[kyletxria1911a1]

Wounded enemies are also a drain on our resources. People tend to get up in arms if a battle is one and you walk the battlefield hole punching the foreheads of anybody still moving. So instead we dump resources in to healing the people that tried to kill us.

Would be much easier if they were dead when we got to them.

Ps punching holes in foreheads is the cost of doing business.

 

[Darqhelmet]

Ps punching holes in foreheads is the cost of doing business.

Dead check.

 

[kyletxria1911a1]

Dead check.

My motto

 

[oldag]

I looked up ballistics based the specs on the commercial ammo 150g bullet at ~3000 fps vs. a 55g 5.56 bullet at ~3000 fps. 2651 ft-lbs of energy vs. 840 ft-lbs at 100 yards. That's a monumental increase.

Three times the momentum delivered.

 

[tekiwap]

I looked at the rifle and caliber they plan on changing over to. I can't see any reason that this should be the typical infantryman weapon. Almost all engagements are within 300 meters and this thing boasts performance above 6.5 creedmor.

You get less rounds, less capacity per magazine, and it's heavier. This is completely stupid. For Specops or special warfare missions I understand, but that 6.8x51 has no more armor penetration than a 5.56 when talking about level 4 plates, which is what most combat troops should and do wear.

It will be the standard Warfighter weapon platform. Only infantry and their direct support (assigned to an infantry unit and are shooting MF) will get the systems; that's why the BOIP is around 250K-ish max over 10 years. Combat support and combat service support won't be getting these. Shooters only. The M4 and 5.56 isn't going anywhere anytime soon. All this is open source, you can go look it up.

Specops...like Call of Duty? Special Forces, at least Army SF, get whatever the Army gives them for weapons 98% of the time. Accessories are just additional sh*t. If they require a different weapon platform and it's not Army, then they get their additional special thing from SOCOM. What's a "special warfare mission"?

Your statement is pretty myopic. Almost all engagements are within 300m because our rifle is a 300m rifle. Almost all engagements initiated by booger-eaters in AFG were well beyond 500m, and most grunts can't shoot beyond 350m because they are trained to shoot plastic russians at 300m MER. Basic Rifle Marksmanship is in the sh*tter beyond 300m. So you're arguing that a soldier should shoot 30, 60, 90 rounds or his basic load and smoke 3 dudes? Within 300m? Or how about shoot 5-10 rounds and smoke 3 dudes. BRM and 7-8 dude.

 

[toddnjoyce]

… I'd like to see the concrete ballistic test on this round...

Shooting concrete with any rifle less than a recoilless rifle is a fools game. There’s a reason “real” players bring Carl Gustavs and water breaching charges with them.

And don’t think I’m trying to justify this new wonder toy, it’s more along the lines of thinking how the Army is justifying this in the contracting process, which is all that matters in procurement.

Like everything else, it’ll get fielded, have teething pains, get improved, then lather rinse repeat and in 3-5 generations we’ll go looking for something different because what we bough has some perceived performance problems.

Hell the original SCARs NSW CRANE put in the field were essentially single shot rifles and look at them now.

 

[TheDan]

A lot more info on the cartridge... Commercial primers and propellant they say.

SIG Ammunition Produced & Delivered Over 825,000 Rounds of 6.8x51mm Composite Case Ammo for US Army Next Generation Squad Weapons Program Prototype Test #2 | Soldier Systems Daily

Last month SIG Ammunition delivered 825,000 rounds of their composite cased 6.8x51mm ammunition to the US Army for Prototype Test #2 of the Next Generation ...

soldiersystems.net

Re-read that article and this just clicked...

The velocities required to achieve the desired effects for that 6.8mm projectile on target call for extremely high chamber pressures in excess of 80,000 psi

Holy shit
If the XM5 can suffer a few mag dumps from that and stay reliable, I'd say it's a nice improvement in firearms design.

 

[Darkpriest667]

Specops...like Call of Duty? Special Forces, at least Army SF, get whatever the Army gives them for weapons 98% of the time. Accessories are just additional sh*t. If they require a different weapon platform and it's not Army, then they get their additional special thing from SOCOM. What's a "special warfare mission"?

Your statement is pretty myopic. Almost all engagements are within 300m because our rifle is a 300m rifle. Almost all engagements initiated by booger-eaters in AFG were well beyond 500m, and most grunts can't shoot beyond 350m because they are trained to shoot plastic russians at 300m MER. Basic Rifle Marksmanship is in the sh*tter beyond 300m. So you're arguing that a soldier should shoot 30, 60, 90 rounds or his basic load and smoke 3 dudes? Within 300m? Or how about shoot 5-10 rounds and smoke 3 dudes. BRM and 7-8 dude.

Sort of, except those marksman principles still count out to 1000 yards. The difference is the entire way you have trained the military on drop and windage now changes. You'll have to retrain all active forces or have two groups. The group that understands the ballistics of 5.56 and the group that understands the ballistics for 6.8. Your average marine is not going to think except what they are told to think when it comes to those principles so you better make damned sure it is standard or else he'll pick up the new weapon in a combat situation and completely miss every shot. Not because he's a bad shot, but because the ballistics of both cartridges are vastly different.

There is nothing myopic about my statements. I'm thinking of the broad long term consequences of changing cartridges. I also think this is to get out from under the AR-15 platform.

And none of those jockeys in Afghanistan or Iraq were hitting shit with their 7.62 x 39 at 500m. Most of the folks HERE might not be able to do that.

The 2nd and 3rd largest militaries in the world China and Russia respectively use a 5.45 caliber rifle with a Red dot or 3x optic. We're putting a 5000 dollar computer on ours with a variable 1-8x and a ballistics calculator. Where the **** are these soldiers doing warfare at? The Desert? Except places like Iraq, Northern Africa, and some other deserts on earth (like Afghan mountains) you don't GET 500 meters of open field for shots.

The reason most engagements are within 300 meters is because most engagements are in thick cover or urban environments (where engagements are usually within 50 meters)

I've been shot at by bad guys twice. Once in East Africa and once in South America. Both times they were a **** load closer than 300 meters. Hell we didn't even SEE each other until we were within 150 meters. (In South America it was much closer than 150 I don't think the guys I was with even knew there was other people around until they were maybe 200 feet away)

Now, I understand optics and scouting in large military environments can help with target identification and engagement, but you better be damn sure those little tiny dots 800 meters out are bad guys before you start raining hell down upon them or you'll be answering to a USMCOJ charge in front of a General.

Shooting concrete with any rifle less than a recoilless rifle is a fools game. There’s a reason “real” players bring Carl Gustavs and water breaching charges with them.

And don’t think I’m trying to justify this new wonder toy, it’s more along the lines of thinking how the Army is justifying this in the contracting process, which is all that matters in procurement.

Like everything else, it’ll get fielded, have teething pains, get improved, then lather rinse repeat and in 3-5 generations we’ll go looking for something different because what we bough has some perceived performance problems.

Hell the original SCARs NSW CRANE put in the field were essentially single shot rifles and look at them now.

Nah Todd I get you, I know your background, this isn't an argument, it's a discussion.

 

[Darqhelmet]

I’ve seen some feed back from testing. Recoil is higher, most troops can hit shit as is and we are going to go back to a higher recoiling weapon? Great… this is graft and feeding the beast. At least it’s not Lockheed this time.

 

[toddnjoyce]

Sort of, except those marksman principles still count out to 1000 yards. The difference is the entire way you have trained the military on drop and windage now changes. ….

Except we don’t train the average trigger puller on drop/windage. That’s very much a designated marksmam/sniper skillset. Pre-ACOG, we taught known distance and a 300M zero since that gave near MPBR performance within the M193/M855s effective range of ~550 yards.

In the ACOG era, we changed to teaching how to use the optic to engage unknown distance targets. Now we don’t need to guesstimate distance or windage, just match the horizontal stadia to a human’s shoulders, use the dot(s) for lead, and pull the trigger. It’s modern marksmanships version of an operational infographic…remember the AFQT for averages for IN is 64% IIIA with ASVAB scores of 50 or better, 33% IIIB/ASVAB 31-49, and 3% IV/ASVAB 10-30.…we’re talking cognitive ability of the average high school graduate composes 2/3ds of the IN and it goes down from there.

 

[Darqhelmet]

Re-read that article and this just clicked...

Holy shit
If the XM5 can suffer a few mag dumps from that and stay reliable, I'd say it's a nice improvement in firearms design.

It’s only 80K chamber pressure. What’s a few extractors between friends? Recoil springs are made to be worked…

 

[Darqhelmet]

Except we don’t train the average trigger puller on drop/windage. That’s very much a designated marksmam/sniper skillset. Pre-ACOG, we taught known distance and a 300M zero since that gave near MPBR performance within the M193/M855s effective range of ~550 yards.

In the ACOG era, we changed to teaching how to use the optic to engage unknown distance targets. Now we don’t need to guesstimate distance or windage, just match the horizontal stadia to a human’s shoulders, use the dot(s) for lead, and pull the trigger. It’s modern marksmanships version of an operational infographic…remember the AFQT for averages for IN is 64% IIIA with ASVAB scores of 50 or better, 33% IIIB/ASVAB 31-49, and 3% IV/ASVAB 10-30.…we’re talking cognitive ability of the average high school graduate composes 2/3ds of the IN and it goes down from there.

Unless the Marines have changed training we get taught drop and wind drift. Granted I qualified on A2’s and carried an M4 with an eotech. The ACOG kids were in with me but I wasn’t one of them.

 

[TheDan]

remember the AFQT for averages for IN is 64% IIIA with ASVAB scores of 50 or better, 33% IIIB/ASVAB 31-49, and 3% IV/ASVAB 10-30

lol... oof

 

[kyletxria1911a1]

Except we don’t train the average trigger puller on drop/windage. That’s very much a designated marksmam/sniper skillset. Pre-ACOG, we taught known distance and a 300M zero since that gave near MPBR performance within the M193/M855s effective range of ~550 yards.

In the ACOG era, we changed to teaching how to use the optic to engage unknown distance targets. Now we don’t need to guesstimate distance or windage, just match the horizontal stadia to a human’s shoulders, use the dot(s) for lead, and pull the trigger. It’s modern marksmanships version of an operational infographic…remember the AFQT for averages for IN is 64% IIIA with ASVAB scores of 50 or better, 33% IIIB/ASVAB 31-49, and 3% IV/ASVAB 10-30.…we’re talking cognitive ability of the average high school graduate composes 2/3ds of the IN and it goes down from there.

Dammit I'm old all we had was iron sights but In all fairness I was in 78-82

 

[toddnjoyce]

Unless the Marines have changed training we get taught drop and wind drift. Granted I qualified on A2’s and carried an M4 with an eotech. The ACOG kids were in with me but I wasn’t one of them.

Can’t speak to what the crayon eaters do.

 

[Darqhelmet]

Can’t speak to what the crayon eaters do.

It was KD to 500 with irons. Stupid really. We take that one shot one kill crap way to far. ITB had better more and practical fire and move training with poppers and covering each other during bounding with live ammo. Shit will teach you to keep your head down real quick.

 

[Darkpriest667]

@MTA89 needs to enlighten us on the training standards