Multiple People Shot at Texas Church

[TJjerry]

I read a lot of these posts but not all 340 of them so excuse me if I am bringing a dead horse back to life. It seems a missed point here is it should not have taken a change in the State law for us to carry in Church. Our right to self-defense is not granted by the State. So it should have never been restricted by the State in the first place.

If your Church wishes you not to carry, then so be it. You can abide, ignore, or change churches. It should have always been up the church leaders as to whether carry was permitted or not. So the next a Texas politician stands up and brags that the State ‘changed the law’ regarding carry in church in September of 2019, let him know that if they had not intervened in our rights in the first place a lot of other Texans might still be alive that died in other church shootings.

 

[Wildcat Diva]

That’s a perfectly expressed point.

 

[Renegade]

I read a lot of these posts but not all 340 of them so excuse me if I am bringing a dead horse back to life. It seems a missed point here is it should not have taken a change in the State law for us to carry in Church. Our right to self-defense is not granted by the State. So it should have never been restricted by the State in the first place.

If your Church wishes you not to carry, then so be it. You can abide, ignore, or change churches. It should have always been up the church leaders as to whether carry was permitted or not. So the next a Texas politician stands up and brags that the State ‘changed the law’ regarding carry in church in September of 2019, let him know that if they had not intervened in our rights in the first place a lot of other Texans might still be alive that died in other church shootings.

Irony is the gunman was engaged in Constitutional carry, but the flock was licensed.

 

[ZX9RCAM]

Irony is the gunman was engaged in Constitutional carry, but the flock was licensed.

I thought that the shooter was a felon?
Maybe I am misremembering.

 

[Kar98]

...Turn on the TV at 7 PM

I'd prefer not to.

Video games are formatted the same. Gun violence is just about all this generation sees.

You lay off video games right now and apologize to my XBox!

 

[majormadmax]

I thought that the shooter was a felon?
Maybe I am misremembering.

He was.

 

[ZX9RCAM]

He was.

Wouldn't he need to be carrying legally?

 

[majormadmax]

Upset, in a trench coat, in a disguise, in a traditionally soft target.... that's how.

Edit: sorry if that came of harsh... my fingers are just tired...

To do security, police or military work you have to completely change how you see the world... there are preditors and there are prey and some mostly tame predators like police .mil etc they think like a preditor and so can see them... the prey cant tell the difference between the two and often think they are on of them too

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Again, it's easy to criticize their actions after-the-fact.

From that short video, it appeared the shooter was sitting in a pew and while others were keeping an eye on him, he didn't appear to be a threat. He even walked up to one of the ushers who didn't appear to be alarmed by his approach, which tells me they may have been keeping an eye on him but no one was overly concerned about his presence.

I have done security, LE and military work and while I probably keep a high situational awareness than the average person, I don't see any screaming indicators that anything was going to happen. Remember this guy was a transient and homeless, so his dress would not have been that out of the ordinary.

Again, this horse has been flogged to the state of being a schnitzel, so I will continue my belief that those charged with security for this church acted as well as could be expected both before and during the shooting. These are not twenty-something-year-old SWAT or SEAL team members, these guys where in their 60s and while armed, other than the one who took the shooter down most likely weren't able to react any quicker than they did; and expecting them to draw and fire within a second or two under such circumstances is unreasonable. I credit them for how quickly they reacted, and my heart goes out to those who made the ultimate sacrifice while trying to protect others! May they rest in peace.

 

[avvidclif]

Many years ago I lost my billfold and DL. I asked the local judge who lived down the street what I should do until I could get a replacement. His advice has stood me good in many other instances and applies to CC also.

He said; "If you don't do anything wrong no-one but you will know you don't have a DL".

Same goes for CC, If you don't need a weapon no-one but you SHOULD know you have it. (certain places excepted where there are metal detectors etc). If you are illegally concealed carrying and have to use it to protect yourself or others the penalties for carrying are minor compared to what the outcome could have been had you not been armed. If the penalties are even enforced. LEO's can be forgetful if you stop an armed robbery or save a life. I realize there are certain localities/jurisdictions where that doesn't apply.

 

[majormadmax]

Wouldn't he need to be carrying legally?

No, as a convicted felon there is no way he could carry a firearm legally.

 

[Old_Inspector]

Three days after the incident, I offer this perspective: the "armed security" at this church were all middle-aged-to-elderly volunteers, not active and serving LEOs who were regularly dealing with "street people". This took place in a church, where everyone there came to worship God, not plan for a completely off-the-wall murderous attack by a "street person" who was not known to be dangerous. I don't have LEO training but I am a suspicious person who trusts no one. I am also 72 years old and my responses are a lot slower than they were 20 years ago, let alone 40 or 50 years ago. Most of us old guys recognize this reality. I saw several pious men in that church who were probably more prepared to seize a man who could have become loud and disruptive and escort him out of church and pray for his salvation. These men - all of them - did not have the mindset to use violence immediately; few men (and fewer women) do. Most of these godly people were probably more than willing to seize and subdue and unarmed and aggressive "street person" not kill a man who threatened their lives and the lives of their family. The presentation of the weapon changed the dynamic and the course of action. Most Christians tend to take the 5th Commandment literally ("Thou shall not kill") and not as it is written in Hebrew ("Do not commit murder"). It is a very hard and unnatural thing to take the life of another human being. Only those who have seen wartime combat or been in a situation that they had to defend their lives know how difficult it is to take a human life. Many will forever feel that they are cursed with the mark of Cain for protection their own lives and/or the lives of others. One of the most unlikely such people that I have known is a nun from South America who had actually killed four men in South America in defense of her own live and the lives of other innocents. As she said when asked what she did afterward, she replied, "First, you throw up, then you get on with your life." She killed them all to protect her fellow nuns and those in her care from evil and violent men who surrendered themselves to their own willfulness and desires. I've read many comments from people on this Board today who have a far too casual attitude toward taking the life of another of God's children. You do what you have to do, regret it afterward, then get on with your life. There are very few people who can immediately respond to violence or the threat of violence with brutal, deadly force. In other words, no real people are John Waynes in real life. You do the best you can, be a defender of those who are defenseless and try to win the immediate battle. If you lose, then you may die but to be willing to give your own life in the defense of others is heroic in the extreme and should never be denigrated. The men who died were heroic and their lives should be celebrated and honored.

 

[Big Dipper]

I thought that the shooter was a felon?
Maybe I am misremembering.

I know I had read about charges, but don’t think I ever read convicted or time served.

 

[Renegade]

I thought that the shooter was a felon?
Maybe I am misremembering.

He was adjudicated mentally defective, so he is was ineligible to have a firearm under federal law.

But he was a free man, and if you truly believe in constitutional carry, no free man should ever be debarred the use of arms, so he would be allowed to have one, and in Texas carrying a long arm does not require a license, so he was engaged in CC.

 

[Shady]

and your draw and fire would be that with a shotgun pointed at your face 10 feet away

Ok

He may have had the tools, but he didn't have the training or skills to use them efficiently...

3.1sec on a draw, concealed or not is too slow...

Had he trained he hopefully would have seen his carry position was a huge handicap and altered how he carried. Whether it would have made a difference here isn't the whole issue, it likely would not have stopped him from getting shot, but 3.1 sec to get you gun out, and not even on target is too slow in almost any case...

Less than 2 seconds... that's how long it takes for me to draw and get 3 shots off from concealed. Its not some wild west trick shot gunslinger speed, its meh and about par for the course with my compatriots.

A few here just want argue and name call... if you lack the skills or knowledge to say something useful why attempt to discredit me and several others when we point out some facts we observe that stand out to us because of our training and experience. The bulk of what the couple of poo-pooers are saying is "youre a seal team 6 wanna be and you're wrong" or "we shouldn't second guess these heros, you're wrong" if I am wrong, walk me through it with something more substantive than "I see a hero with tools being heroic" I would LOVE to have conversation about tactics and what was dome and what could have beem dome better or differemt, but the name calling is just pulling this thread towards the gutter so please stop.

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[majormadmax]

I know I had read about charges, but don’t think I ever read convicted or time served.

Before the shooting, the shooter had several run-ins with authorities. Fort Worth police arrested him in 2008 and charged him with felony aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, according to Department of Public Safety court records. The charge was later lowered to misdemeanor deadly conduct, and he was convicted in 2009, the records show. He was sentenced to 90 days in jail.

In 2011 he was arrested in Tuttle, Oklahoma, on suspicion of assaulting a convenience store employee and setting several items on fire around town, including tree branches doused with gasoline, a football soaked with lamp oil, and tampons soaked with oil. He was sentenced to a year in jail after being convicted of a misdemeanor property charge in that case, and 90 days in jail for misdemeanor assault and battery, according to court records.

The shooter was diagnosed with forms of psychosis and depression and was prescribed medications to treat the conditions, according to a report by the Oklahoma Department of Mental Health and Substance Abuse Services, filed in Grady County District Court in February 2013.

The report states that during an evaluation in 2012, the shooter "displayed several signs of mental illness, including 'apathy, long latency of response to questions and an impaired ability to attend, concentrate and focus.'"

In December 2013, Fort Worth police arrested the shooter for misdemeanor theft and he was convicted in January 2014, the records show. He was sentenced to 30 days in jail.

The shooter faced an unlawful possession of weapons charge in New Jersey in 2016, records show. He pleaded guilty to the lesser charge of criminal trespass, the court documents show.

Local reports at the time said the shooter was arrested in Linden after police found him near a Phillips 66 refinery with a 12-gauge shotgun. He was sentenced to time served, 303 days in jail.

 

[ZX9RCAM]

No, as a convicted felon there is no way he could carry a firearm legally.

That was my point.
How could it be constitutional carry?

 

[Renegade]

He was.

What crime?

All I saw were MD convictions, it was his mental adjudication that made him a prohibited person.

 

[majormadmax]

That was my point.
How could it be constitutional carry?

I know, I was just playing along...

 

[Inspector43]

Many years ago I lost my billfold and DL. I asked the local judge who lived down the street what I should do until I could get a replacement. His advice has stood me good in many other instances and applies to CC also.

He said; "If you don't do anything wrong no-one but you will know you don't have a DL".

Same goes for CC, If you don't need a weapon no-one but you SHOULD know you have it. (certain places excepted where there are metal detectors etc). If you are illegally concealed carrying and have to use it to protect yourself or others the penalties for carrying are minor compared to what the outcome could have been had you not been armed. If the penalties are even enforced. LEO's can be forgetful if you stop an armed robbery or save a life. I realize there are certain localities/jurisdictions where that doesn't apply.

A SO Captain where I used to live, and before the CC came out, came in a situation where a person he stopped took a shot at him. A person driving by stopped and pulled a gun and started firing. The person who shot at the SO eventually got away. The first thing the SO said to the person who stopped was "...good thing you passed this way on your way to the shooting range..."

 

[Renegade]

How could it be constitutional carry?

Constitutional Carry is the carrying of firearms without a license or permit, which is exactly what he was doing. No license or permit is needed to carry a shotgun in Texas. On the other hand, the security team all had shall issue licenses, since they chose to have handguns.