what is your opinion on snake bit kits like this?

[kurt]

I am a paramedic in Austin. Our current protocol calls for almost nothing other than getting the victim to the anti-venom.

From our protocols:

Splint limb, bandage and
place at level below heart.
Minimize movement.
Remove constricting items
NO Ice

Additional Protocol (s) as needed:
Pain Control Protocol M-16
Allergic Reaction Protocol M-02
Hypotension Protocol M-11
Seizure Protocol M-17
Nausea/Vomiting Protocol M-13

 

[ROGER4314]

I was really into wildflower photography, dirt biking and canoeing so snakes were all around me. The BEST plan is to not get struck! I have a good (spelled expensive) pair of snake boots, some snake gaters and carried a SB kit.

After 85 degrees, snakes do not move around much. They find a parking place and chill out. The most common way to get zapped is to step on one, reach up where they are chillin' or to disturb them unnecessarily. Most will leave you alone if you let them. Watch where you put your hands and wear boots.

My snake boots are size 11 wide but I'm a 12 now. I didn't want shell out for another pair of boots so now, I wear my Motocross boots as snake protection! A jack hammer couldn't penetrate those boots!

The Water Moccasin is a nasty bastard that has different color skin as their growth occurs. At times, they become very aggressive and will even chase you! A Moccasin smells very musty in closed quarters. My friend "Rabbit" was the best snake handler I've ever known said: "Them's bad snakes!"

If a Moccasin is rat holing in a building, spray some Diesel fuel around. They hate the stuff!

The only thing I could add to what the other guys said, is that I was taught that most people put the tourniquet on too tightly. The poison migrates from the wound very close to the skin. A lighter tourniquet application is best.

Small snakes have very powerful venom........even more so than their adults.

Coral snakes have very small mouths and generally bite places like the web of the hand (between the thumb and forefinger). There are copycat Coral snakes with almost identical coloring but they are not dangerous. The key to remember the color bands of the Coral snake is "Red touches yellow, kill a fellow."

Flash

 

[vmax]

....

Small snakes have very powerful venom........even more so than their adults.
....

Flash

Ive heard that tossed out back and forth and told as a urban myth.

not sure I agree, but a venomous snake bite is serious, no matter the size

 

[jrbfishn]

Larger snakes have more control. Purely defensive bites will sometimes be dry bites. Venom is thier food source. Using it in defense is a waste of resource. Younger snakes that have not learned how to control thier bite will almost always deliver venom. But even residual venom on the fangs can be very dangerous.
Enen a scratch fron a dead snakes fang can be deadly.

 

[ROGER4314]

Snakebite story..........

I had a long haired cat maned "Trucker" who wandered into my life one day and hung around for free food. He was a wild, outside cat who based his movements at my house. He disappeared without a trace and a few days later, the neighborhood kids said they found him behind a neighbor's house. He was a pitiful sight!

His leg was swelled up so big that the skin split open in several places and he was sprawled out near an ant hill whose residents were chowing down on that mess of a leg. The ants may actually have done some good as they ate the festered and decaying places.

I took the poor guy home and pondered whether to put him to sleep. I fed him tiny pieces of ham (he LOVED ham) and got him to drink from an eye dropper. Once he ate the ham, I knew we had him on the way back!

Weeks turned into months and that leg all but disappeared. From hip to toes, the leg looked like bones with skin stretched over them, but he gimped around pretty well! Trucker was a big, tough Tomcat and the leg didn't seem to diminish his tough guy standing in the neighborhood.

Gradually, the muscle began to bounce back and after about the second year, the leg looked almost normal.

It didn't end well. He disappeared again and this time, my neighbor found Trucker in his boat UMMM.......pretty well recycled.

Flash

 

[Dragunov]

Best first aid treatment I've read about was knowing the Long and Lat coordinates of the ranch to give the Careflight pilot.

Snake expert here.

This is the proper treatment for snake bite. mitchntx has it right.

Extractor kits are like peeing in the ocean to make the tide rise for viper bites.

Absolutely NO good for elapid bites, or scorpion stings.

Vipers have longer fangs, and inject venom into the muscle tissue more often than not, where you can't suck it out.

The molecules in elapid venom are very small, and absorb almost instantly into the tissue.

Use of an Australian compression bandage is the only viable field treatment, but ONLY FOR CORAL SNAKES, OR TYPE A MOJAVE RATTLESNAKE BITES.

Coral snakes (Micrurus fulvius tenere) are elapids, related to Kraits. Type "A" Mojave rattlesnakes have neurotoxic venom very similar to the coral snake.

NEVER!!!

SHOCK a bite.

Cryo treat a bite.

Cut into ANY snakebite.

Only time you put a ligature on a bite is if medical treatment is more than eight hours away, the bite is severe, and you plan on losing the limb.

The only envenomation that cold is useful for is scorpion stings. That's because scorpion venom isn't concentrated digestive juice, it's designed to cause pain, and to paralyze small prey.

My daughter (Miss V) was scorpion stung on her arm at 3:am friday morning, while she slept. She woke me up while using words that I didn't think she was inclined to use. I found the scorpion (She thought it was a fire ant sting) after a thorough search of her room. It was under the top seam of her mattress.

I gave her a good dose of benadryl, made a small mudball, and bandaged it on top of the sting..... Needless to say, I spent the next hour searching her room for "those little b@st@rds" while she slept on the couch.

Next day, much better. Arm was sore, so I applied ice packs. Seemed to relieve her pain. The only thing she had after that was a tingling around her mouth the rest of the day, Buccal tingling is a symptom of scorpion envenomation.

 

[ROGER4314]

Great Post! Thanks for sharing the information!

Flash

 

[Dragunov]

Great Post! Thanks for sharing the information!

Flash

You are very welcome. If you have any more "snake" questions, you may direct them to me if you like.

 

[Hoji]

anyone here with medical training have an opinion on these?
Our ranch is 30 miles from a hospital and I want to have some form of first aid in case of a snake bite.

There isn't a completely agreed upon first aid treatment method. So many opinions and so many reports that say, suction or no suction.

I remember reading about using a stun gun one time on the bite area. I don't know how that idea ever took off.

They work providing you can get the suction started within about 60 seconds of the bite. Any later than that and the venom has saturated the tissue and any benefit will be greatly reduced.

 

[Dragunov]

anyone here with medical training have an opinion on these?
Our ranch is 30 miles from a hospital and I want to have some form of first aid in case of a snake bite.

There isn't a completely agreed upon first aid treatment method. So many opinions and so many reports that say, suction or no suction.

I remember reading about using a stun gun one time on the bite area. I don't know how that idea ever took off.

This is the worst idea amongst all bad ideas.

We debunked electrotherapy at U.C. (University of Cincinnati) back in the late '70's. Only an idiot would shock a bite.

Why?

Viper venom in particular, is FULL of cardiotoxins. When you're bitten, your heart undergoes a "toxic event" and goes into junction rhythm. subjecting your heart to further trauma by "shocking" yourself CAN cause IMMEDIATE cardiac arrest!!!

Whomever came up with this idea, should have a taser used on them repeatedly for being stupid.

Now let me explain why you shouldn't use other "recommended" treatments.

Icing a bite:

Snakebite wounds are undergoing a digestive process. Applying ice WILL cause the bite area to frostbite VERY quickly, and cause even more damage, up to, and including gangrene.
The only time it's ok and even beneficial to use ice on an envenomation is:
Wasp stings.
Bee stings.
Scorpion stings (only in the U.S.).

Why? Because these venoms are exclusively designed to cause pain and inflammation. Ice will relieve both somewhat.

Heat:

Because this will worsen the pain, an may accelerate bacterial growth.

Excising the bite.

More tissue trauma, risk of infection and shock. Bleeding. Snake venom travels through the LYMPH system, not the bloodstream unless directly injected into an artery or a vein. Not likely.

Suction:

Like peeing in the ocean to make the tide rise. Doesn't work. Viper venom is usually injected into muscle or other subcutaneous tissue where it can't be sucked out. Elapid venom absorbs into tissue within a few seconds, and is non-retrievable.

Ligature:

MAY be somewhat effective for Elapid bites, not good for Viper bites. The Aussie compression bandage however, can save your life if you're bitten by a Coral snake (Micrurus/Micruroides sp.) or a type "A" Mojave rattlesnake (Crotalus scutulatus). These have very powerful neurotoxins that cause very little to no tissue destruction.

If you're MORE than eight hours from medical treatment, have a SEVERE bite, AND plan on life without your limb, Ligature can save your life, but as I said. Plan on losing the limb. This is a reason you should educate yourself on snakes. Learn to identify them positively. Know the symptoms of severe envenomation and anaphylaxis. No point in losing an arm or leg due to Copperhead (Agkistrodon sp.) or a pygmy rattler (Sistrurus sp.) bite if you don't need to. Copperheads and Pygmy rattlers are VERY unlikely to be fatal, even if you get a full charge. You might FEEL like you're gonna die, as both are extremely painful envenomations, and will cause systemic illness (edema, tissue destruction, Nausea, vomiting, headache, and extreme local pain). But save for anaphylaxis, you'll live. Anaphylaxis will cause your throat to swell very quickly, close off your airway, and suffocate you! CARRY EPI-PENS! You CAN use liquid BENADRYL also, but it's not as effective, as quickly as Epi-pens.

Why no ligature?

You keep viper venom in one place, it will destroy ALL the tissue, south of the ligature, and probably necessitate amputation due to gas gangrene.

WHAT TO DO!!!

Wash bite GENTLY with MILD soap and water, ESPECIALLY for Cottonmouth bites, they DO eat some carrion, and have a large fauna of bacteria in their mouths!

DO NOT PANIC! It's gonna hurt, but keep in mind that you have a 99% chance of a full recovery if you make it to medical attention, and about an 85/90% chance of survival even if you just "ride it out" (NOT recommended).
Being panicky will only get your adrenalin up, and speed the circulation of venom.
Keep bitten limb low, this will help slow the absorption of venom.
Carry a "Sharpie" pen. If bitten, draw a line around the shape of the inflammation. Do this every ten to fifteen minutes. Record the time right on the skin at each line. This will tell EMS how quickly the venom is spreading and possibly how severe the bite is.
DO NOT drink coffee, alcohol, or take ANY stimulants or any type of "blood thinner", or anti-coagulants like aspirin or acetaminophen. Aspirin can cause hemorrhaging, as most viper venom is already a massively effective anti-coagulant, this can cause a fatal hemorrhage. Same with Tylenol.
Carry a cellphone and have reliable transportation.
Carry epi-pens if possible. If you're allergic to bee stings, good chance you're allergic to other types of envenomations also. If you're NOT allergic to bee stings, you can STILL be allergic to snake/spider/scorpion envenomations! EPI-PENS SAVE LIVES! If someone starts going into anaphylactic shock, USE THE PEN QUICKLY!

Learn how to apply an Aussie compression bandage and use it ONLY for Coral snake, and type "A" Mojave rattlesnake bites.

Get to the hospital as quick and as safely as possible. All viper bites in the U.S. are treated with the same polyvalent antivenin. Coral snake bites have no antivenin available at this time, so STAY AWAY from them. I guarantee they're much more dangerous than you've been told, or led to believe (I have probably handled more Coral snakes than just about anyone else on this planet.... NOT kidding! I KNOW how dangerous they are.). Not having antivenin makes them all the more so.

How do you tell if you've been bitten by a type "A" Mojave rattlesnake?

It will look almost identical to the Western diamondback, So.....

Western Diamondbacks are much larger with an EXTREMELY painful bite.
Mojave rattlers are generally around three feet long at the longest.
You can't go by coloration, because I have seen green-phase Western diamondbacks, but they're uncommon.
I have also seen Albinos.
Red ones.
All black ones (melanistic).
Rarely green ones.
But typically greys with dark grey/greenish-grey diamonds.
Western Diamondback usually have even, symmetrical black/white rings around the tail. Mojaves GENERALLY have broken/incomplete/unsymmetrical and uneven rings around the tail.

About 60% of all the Mojaves I've seen can be identified as "green", however, as with Diamondbacks, I've seen reds, greys, greens, albinos and melanistics (all black).

Mojave bites:

You live in western Texas, VERY western Texas.
The bite has little to no pain and inflammation.
You start getting sick. Tingling around the mouth, fingers, toes, ears, paralysis, headache, blurred/double vision due to the paralysis of the occular muscles, rapid or slow heartbeat (tachy/bradycardia), weak, thready pulse, acute drop in blood pressure, muscle spasms, difficulty in breathing, Convulsions, coma then death. Mojaves have been known to kill an adult human within fifteen minutes, but it normally takes longer. around 25% of Mojave bites are "dry".

Western Diamondback bites:

You live just about anywhere in Texas.
Bite is accompanied by severe to extreme pain! severe, spreading edema, blistering and oozing at the bite sight, black tissue (necrosis).

You start getting sick. Nausea, panicky feeling, vomiting (sometimes violently), diarrhea, usually headache, increasing pain up the bitten limb, back pain due to trauma to the kidneys, bloody, or dark reddish, purplish, or black urine. This is due to muscle tissue breaking down and spilling toxic hemoglobin into your system which your kidneys then try and filter out. THIS is what causes your back pain. Tachy/bradycardia, "Yellow-tinted vision", If you have yellow tinted vision, this is a sign of a VERY SEVERE ENVENOMATION, and you're in some REAL dire straits! Jaundice (liver failure), arrhythmia (remember what I said about cardiotoxins??), Convulsions, bleeding of the gums, possibly ears, nose and eyes, coma and death.

A note on Coral snake bites:

Coral snake envenomation is insidious. You'll feel no pain, probably be asymptomatic for some time, up to 24 hours. Suddenly, you can't breath, talk, move, your heart stops and you die. These symptoms, once they're onset, can unplug you in a matter of minutes. A healthy, young man in Florida was bitten by a two foot Coral snake on the finger back in 1978. He went to the hospital. He showed no symptoms, so he got no antivenin. He was kept for observation for 24 hours. He suddenly felt "funny" as he was being discharged, suddenly stopped breathing, collapsed into a coma, his heart stopped and he died. The time from onset of symptoms to his death was around five minutes. There was NOTHING they could do for him. I was a Freshman at U.C. at the time, and saw the toxicology report, and autopsy report on this one.

A few years ago, 2002, maybe 2003, three men in Florida (again), were all bitten by the same Coral snake. One was bitten, the other two were attempting to catch/kill it, and both of them were bitten. The first guy rode to the hospital on his bike (not that far away), but died within a couple of hours. The second guy bitten survived, but wound up with several neurological deficits. The third guy bitten was near death when EMS arrived, and died a couple hours after admission. All three received antivenin treatment, two out of three died. It wasn't noted, but it was probably a fairly large Coral snake. Since then, no Coral snake antivenin has been available. STAY AWAY FROM CORAL SNAKES!! Coral snakes almost never "dry" bite. Problem is, you just don't know if it's a dry bite or not until it's too late.

I hope Y'all found this post helpful.
Happy, and safe hiking/camping!

 

[Dragunov]

Ive heard that tossed out back and forth and told as a urban myth.

not sure I agree, but a venomous snake bite is serious, no matter the size

It is both true, and untrue.

Copperheads, Cottonmouths (Agkistrodon sp.), and Coral snakes (Micrurus/Micruroides sp.), adults and young have venom of similar potency.

Young Timber and "Canebrake" rattlesnakes (Crotalus horridus), have much more potent venom than the adults. Giving you the skinny of it ( I'm not going to explain LD/50, look it up), Adult timber venom, estimated lethal dose for a healthy, human adult, is around 45mg of raw venom. The young ones, around 25/30mg. Compare that to a Western Diamondback (Crotalus atrox), 100-150mg, Timbers are pretty dangerous. Timbers, along with the Southern pacific rattlesnake (Crotalus helleri), are starting to develope a more potent, neurotoxin in their venom, and getting harder to treat.. Copperhead venom seems to be getting stronger also. Not sure how much longer they'll stay on the "not likely to kill you" list. The first fatal Copperhead envenomations (two of them) for a human adult, were recorded in 2004. One by a 4.5 foot Northern Copperhead (Agkistrodon contortrix mokeson), and another in South Carolina by a large, Southern Copperhead (Agkistrodon c.contortrix). The latter, a sheriffs deputy was on the ground trying to retrieve an ink pen he dropped that rolled under his cruiser. He was bitten on the forearm and died a couple days later. He didn't go immediately for treatment, and went past the point of no return. Memory doesn't serve me well on the first one, but I believe that one was in rural Kentucky.

And YES..... ANY venomous snake bite is a bonafied, medical emergency!!!

 

[Younggun]

Sounds like it's best to shoot on site.

 

[diveRN]

Suction for venomous snakebite: a study of "mock venom" extraction in a human model. - PubMed - NCBI

Abstract

STUDY OBJECTIVE:
We determine the percentage of mock venom recovered by a suction device (Sawyer Extractor pump) in a simulated snakebite in human volunteers.

METHODS:
A mock venom (1 mL normal saline solution, 5.0 mg albumin, 2.5 mg aggregated albumin) radioactively labeled with 1 mCi of technetium was injected with a curved 16-gauge hypodermic needle 1 cm into the right lateral lower leg of 8 supine male volunteers aged 28 to 51 years. The Sawyer Extractor pump was applied after a 3-minute delay, and the blood removed by suction was collected after an additional 15 minutes. A 1991 Siemens Diacam was used to take measurements of the radioactive counts extracted and those remaining in the leg and body.

RESULTS:
The "envenomation load," as measured by mean radioactivity in the leg after injection, was 89,895 counts/min. The mean radioactivity found in the blood extracted in the 15 minutes of suction was 38.5 counts/min (95% confidence interval [CI] -33 to 110 counts/min), representing 0.04% of the envenomation load. The postextraction leg count was less than the envenomation load by 1,832 counts/min (95% CI -3,863 to 200 counts/min), representing a 2.0% decrease in the total body venom load.

CONCLUSION:
The Sawyer Extractor pump removed bloody fluid from our simulated snakebite wounds but removed virtually no mock venom, which suggests that suction is unlikely to be an effective treatment for reducing the total body venom burden after a venomous snakebite.

QFW: "Snake bite kits don't remove venom, they just suck."

Four steps to remember as a bite victim:

1. Get away from the snake.
2. Relax for a minute. You're going to be freaked out. Lower your heart rate.
3. Work up an evac plan with the goal of getting medical help ASAP.
4. Execute your plan.

 

[A.Texas.Yankee]

To the snake expert, is there a difference in venom between copperhead types in Texas? I come across about a 3' + banded copperhead on my property and it got away into the thicket before relocation services (my pole and net) could be retrieved. Never saw a banded before, have plenty of regulars (although much smaller).

 

[IXLR8]

I had a friend with property near Rockport we used for target practice. Damn near everything on his property was trying to kill you, Snakes, scorpions, alligators, and killer bees. We never went out without snake chaps on. I never got close enough to a snake to need them, but it is the ones you don't see that get you. It saved him at least twice.

Prevention is much better than a cure.

 

[diveRN]

...
Prevention is much better than a cure.

^^^ This.

 

[Dragunov]

That would be the Broad banded copperhead (Agkistrodon c. laticinctus) The danger of a copperhead is related to the size of the snake, not the species. A larger copperhead is more dangerous than a small one. Same with the cottonmouth.

 

[A.Texas.Yankee]

So for a 3 footer get the 12 gauge? I'm not one to kill things, but this was within 25 feet of the house.

 

[Dragunov]

So for a 3 footer get the 12 gauge? I'm not one to kill things, but this was within 25 feet of the house.

How close are you to me? I would rather relocate it, but if you must, any shotgun will suffice. Just make sure you obliterate the head if you plan on moving it afterwards. Recently killed snakes can still bite, and it would probably be severe.

If you're reasonably close, I'll come remove it.

 

[A.Texas.Yankee]

I've never killed a snake (on purpose) and wouldn't plan to, unless all other options were exhausted and if I had to, there wouldn't be enough of it left to worry. I haven't seen it recently, but I'm keeping the pole and net more easily accessible. Where do you relocate snakes to?

Edited:

In Springtown