Ukraine invasion

[BigRed]

Because isolationism did us so many favors before...and a neo-Soviet empire taking over chunks of Europe while the Chinese run rampant in the Pacific would be no threat to us at all.

America is anything but isolationist these days. Ukraine is not even an ally.

Not our battle.

 

[General Zod]

America is anything but isolationist these days. Ukraine is not even an ally.

Not our battle.

And you believe Putin when he says he just wants a couple of provinces of Ukraine...a few months after he failed his stated goal (which he now denies he ever said) of conquering all of Ukraine...after what he did in Georgia and Chechnya before...

There's very little doubt that after conquering Ukraine, if NATO had sat by and let it happen, he'd have gone after Poland or Slovakia, both of which are our allies. Or maybe he'd have decided to reclaim his old stomping grounds of the eastern half of Germany. And BTW, Ukraine has been our ally the last few years. Our military has put a lot of work into training theirs and there have been multiple joint exercises every year - that's a major reason they've done this well.

 

[cycleguy2300]

It's all moot.

The battle of the clowns belongs to the clowns. It is not ours.

It may not your battle, but I have made it mine.

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[BigRed]

And you believe Putin when he says he just wants a couple of provinces of Ukraine...a few months after he failed his stated goal (which he now denies he ever said) of conquering all of Ukraine...after what he did in Georgia and Chechnya before...

There's very little doubt that after conquering Ukraine, if NATO had sat by and let it happen, he'd have gone after Poland or Slovakia, both of which are our allies. Or maybe he'd have decided to reclaim his old stomping grounds of the eastern half of Germany. And BTW, Ukraine has been our ally the last few years. Our military has put a lot of work into training theirs and there have been multiple joint exercises every year - that's a major reason they've done this well.

Not our battle.

We are not the "world police".

 

[BigRed]

It may not your battle, but I have made it mine.

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I understand you have gone there.

Was it volunteer?

 

[General Zod]

Not our battle.

We are not the "world police".

So...isolationism. See my previous reply. I'll also point out that we're not fighting over there. Also, whether Ukraine is an ally or not (which they supposedly are), opposing Russia is in our interests because not only are they not an ally, they are in fact an adversary. One whose soldiers have come into direct conflict (and actual combat) with ours in recent years. But hey, let's just let them do whatever they want, right? That'll keep 'em from pushing their luck further!

 

[BigRed]

So...isolationism. See my previous reply. I'll also point out that we're not fighting over there. Also, whether Ukraine is an ally or not (which they supposedly are), opposing Russia is in our interests because not only are they not an ally, they are in fact an adversary. One whose soldiers have come into direct conflict (and actual combat) with ours in recent years. But hey, let's just let them do whatever they want, right? That'll keep 'em from pushing their luck further!

If Russians are such the threat to the States then eliminate them.

 

[cycleguy2300]

America is anything but isolationist these days. Ukraine is not even an ally.

Not our battle.

Not an ally? Ukraine is in love with freedom and has been making real steps to turn away from their imposed Soviet past and to become a real, truly free nation. Imagine USA without BS nanny lawsuits, that is pretty much Ukraine right now. It is in many ways freer than the USA with the lack of certain taxes, no nanny state laws or lawsuits...

While in Ukraine, US and Texas Flag patches were VERY proudly worn by the few that could get one. The couple I had and handed out to buddies left them flabbergasted and they slapped them on front and center.... they may not be a treaty ally, but they are our ally and friend.

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[General Zod]

If that's the case, then eliminate them.

Or...we can let the much smaller and supposedly weaker nation they decided to invade kick their asses for all the world to see...by providing them with all the military assistance they need. Which despite the breathless reports of all the "billions of dollars worth" of worn out, surplus equipment we were paying money to maintain in storage that we're sending, we're actually doing the bare minimum of. Because Democrats like to talk big and act like they're taking charge, but really they just want to let things happen on their own...like you suggest doing.

 

[BigRed]

Not an ally? Ukraine is in love with freedom and has been making real steps to turn away from their imposed Soviet past and to become a real, truly free nation. Imagine USA without BS nanny lawsuits, that is pretty much Ukraine right now. It is in many ways freer than the USA with the lack of certain taxes, no nanny state laws or lawsuits...

While in Ukraine, US and Texas Flag patches were VERY proudly worn by the few that could get one. The couple I had and handed out to buddies left them flabbergasted and they slapped them on front and center.... they may not be a treaty ally, but they are our ally and friend.

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Ukraine loves the give away of money plundered from American taxpayers.

 

[easy rider]

saw this posted elsewhere:

”I believe the EU as a whole has actually put more into this than the US has (or it's extremely close), and not just in terms of the cost of taking in millions of refugees, but armaments, money, other aid, etc., If you get into individual countries' GDP numbers, some European countries are punching well above their weight class, especially the smaller countries.

The US is actually spending very little, especially when compared to our defense budget, and if you want to look at it in a cold/rational manner, every bit of Russian hardware that is destroyed in Ukraine, is Russian hardware that won't end up in some other part of the world, presenting a future threat to us or our markets, as well as diminishing Russia's ability to mess around elsewhere.

Oh, and a whole lot of the stuff we are sending over was sitting in storage or slated to be replaced/surplused. We have thousands of Abrams in storage, thousands of Bradleys, thousands of M113s, thousands of Humbles, just sitting there, doing nothing other than costing us storage/maintenance, because we drastically reduced our military in the 90s after the Soviet Union collapsed, or we have newer systems on the horizon - they are all slated to be replaced, but we keep them in storage "just in case" even though we couldn't ramp up the US military fast enough to actually man and use them.

And we do this not just because we present ourselves as leaders of the free world, but because we are Europe's largest economic partner, and we export hundreds of billions of dollars of goods and services to the EU every year. It's the same reason why we have such a massive military, such a massive Navy - world stability is good for our markets.

And we damn sure don't want the Russians controlling so much of the world's food supply, because they can cause instability in South America/Africa due to rising food prices, and in the case of South America, that will drive people to head for our border.”

How many billions now? Sure, we can agree to spend hundreds of billions on Ukraine's borders, but ask for 5.7 billion for our own border, you may get 1.4 billion.

Don't minimize how much American tax dollars are spent on what amounts to borders half the planet away.

 

[General Zod]

How many billions now? Sure, we can agree to spend hundreds of billions on Ukraine's borders, but ask for 5.7 billion for our own border, you may get 1.4 billion.

Don't minimize how much American tax dollars are spent on what amounts to borders half the planet away.

As has been pointed out multiple times, we're not buying them new equipment, nor are we stripping equipment from our own units to send over there. They're getting the older, superceded equipment we've been paying money to keep serviceable in storage. We're at least breaking even if not coming out ahead by unloading to them.

It's amazing that nobody thinks we can help an ally and shore up our own borders. Considering what the government blows on frivolous shit and additional IRS agents, the amount of actual money we're sending Ukraine is minimal, as is the expense of what essentially translates to us having a garage sale.

 

[cycleguy2300]

How many billions now? Sure, we can agree to spend hundreds of billions on Ukraine's borders, but ask for 5.7 billion for our own border, you may get 1.4 billion.

Don't minimize how much American tax dollars are spent on what amounts to borders half the planet away.

For the most part we really are not "spending" anything.

Its more like going through garage and boxing up a bunch of stuff for goodwill, then totalling up the NEW cost of the now used and obsolete (for our needs) items to say you gave away X-amount of dollars... the vehicles and equipment would have sat and rotted or at best been a range target.

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[BigRed]

We're at least breaking even if not coming out ahead by unloading to them.

Sell them to the US taxpayers who paid to build and store them. What's the opening bid for a tank?

 

[General Zod]

Sell them to the US taxpayers who paid to build and store them. What's the opening bid for a tank?

Ah, I see. We're no longer having a serious conversation about the real world. Good evening, then.

 

[BigRed]

Considering what the government blows on frivolous shit

Like the nonsense in Ukraine and Russia.

 

[General Zod]

Like the nonsense in Ukraine and Russia.

See my above reply.

 

[BigRed]

Ah, I see. We're no longer having a serious conversation about the real world. Good evening, then.

I am serious.

Instead of giving the stuff away, sell it to US citizens....put some money back in the coffers.

 

[General Zod]

I am serious.

Instead of giving the stuff away, sell it to US citizens....put some money back in the coffers.

You gonna maintain and fuel a tank that's powered by a jet turbine engine and runs on JP4 jet fuel? You're talking nonsense - which I suppose is a break from simply parroting back "not our fight" but is no less uninformed.

 

[BigRed]

You gonna maintain and fuel a tank that's powered by a jet turbine engine and runs on JP4 jet fuel? You're talking nonsense - which I suppose is a break from simply parroting back "not our fight" but is no less uninformed.

No.

I want to bid on some of those obsolete fully functional M60s