breakingcontact
TGT Addict
I found this interesting. That is all.
Shooting with a metronome
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I found this interesting. That is all.
breakingcontact
TGT Addict
As soon as 511 tactical makes a metronome in FDE.
I'd have to download a buzzer app on my phone. My shot timer isn't fancy enough to give me beeps.
I just thought it was kind of novel.
This is a well-thought out example of working hard versus smart. 
In other words, an "8 step drawstroke" is just plain making things harder than they have to be.
In reality, what is the shortest distance between two points? A straight line. Although there are a handful of people out there that can do the "press out" drawstroke with a good degree of performance and consistency, and there are a very few that still teach it, the vast majority of shooters would probably be better served learning a less complicated and more repeatable drawstroke. One of the major difficulties with the "press out" style drawstroke is consistency. With a standard, modern drawstroke, where the gun is brought relatively straight to the target from the holster, with minimal training and repetition, it is not difficult for the average shooter to develop a good degree of consistency in being able to simply look at and focus on their intended POA on target, and to subconsciously draw the gun while allowing their body to self-adjust and bring the gun and sites right to that exact point. It is kind of uncanny how this occurs at a subconscious level, but the fact remains, this is a fairly common component of hand/eye coordination that is easily trained (unless it is trained in a manner that might over-complicate the matter).
Some of the performance deficiencies with the press out drawstroke is there actually seems to be a marked decrease in the consistency with which you can bring the sites to the exact point at which you are focusing. Also, many shooters appear to artificially decrease the speed of various parts of drawstroke in an effort to see the sites as early as possible, ultimately resulting in a slower drawstroke. Additionally, the motion of punching the gun out straight to the target from a high #3 position at partial extension, with the sites in the eyeline or beginning to rise within the eyeline, seems to increase the possibility in which shooters will inevitably experience "muzzle whip" due to punching the gun out more forcefully (in an effort to regain the speed they've lost in slowing down the initial stages of drawstroke to catch the sites early on in the #3 / partial extension). If muzzle whip is experienced, inevitably it means a significant decrease in the consistency of being able to focus on what you want to shoot and being able to bring the sites to that exact spot.
Here's a few examples of the press out style drawstroke, to help people understand:
One of the first basic differences from a more conventional drawstroke is, the gun is brought high in front of the face, usually by dropping the elbows and/or raising the forearms, putting the gun and sites relatively in front of the face or close to it. The gun is then pressed out straight to the target, the idea being that you can "ride the sites" to the target with your eye and will end up with the sites at the exact POA on target. Todd Green is a proponent of this drawstroke, teaches it, and I don't think anyone can argue against him certainly having a good degree of skill and performance. That being said, some methods may work well for those that put in significant time and effort with them, and also those that might possibly have the physiological traits that mesh well with a particular technique. What works for one may not necessarily work for all. Here are a few other examples. Some are very exaggerated in raising the gun up into the eyeline. What you'll notice on many of them, is between the time the gun is raised into the eyeline and the press out to target, you can measurably see there is probably a good 0.2-0.4 tenths of a second in speed that could be shaved from the drawstroke by simply bringing the gun straight out to the target with a more conventional drawstroke.
Speaking from personal experience, I gave the press out I think 1 year's worth of effort, including with sporadic IDPA matches and classifiers throughout that year, and the end result is that I found myself to be much less consistent than I was when using a more conventional drawstroke.
As far as the actual metronome goes, what I would say is, anything that can help a shooter begin to learn consciously and ultimately subconsciously gauging speed will possibly be beneficial to try out. Eventually, reaching higher levels of skill, a shooter will be able to gauge speed, gauge all of the variables involved in hitting a particular target, and will know how to vary their speed and exercise of the fundamentals to make the hits on target. For example, instead of only having 2 speeds, slow and fast, a good shooter will be able to shoot at a variety of speeds, which are ultimately dictated by the difficulty of the shot, size, and distance of the target. An excellent shooter will have a near infinite variability in being able to shoot consistently at almost any speed, such as going from 0.5-1.0 second splits for very tight shots and or shots at extreme distance, to 0.25 second splits running at a good pace for a generously sized target, to running at a high rate of speed like 0.12-.14 second splits for close shots on extremely large targets, or large steel targets where there are no scoring zones. Considering that, I could see how a metronome could help shooters, particularly newer shooters, to get used to firing in cadence and firing consistently at certain speeds. That being said, it would be good to keep in mind that, once you reach a certain skill level and level of consistency, these habits should be ingrained into the subconscious for the best effect. So I think beyond a certain point in experience and skill, something like a metronome or being stuck on cadence might not have any beneficial effect, and could actually be detrimental to a small to moderate degree in terms of a shooter artificially restricting their performance to match the metronome.
In other words, an "8 step drawstroke" is just plain making things harder than they have to be.In reality, what is the shortest distance between two points? A straight line. Although there are a handful of people out there that can do the "press out" drawstroke with a good degree of performance and consistency, and there are a very few that still teach it, the vast majority of shooters would probably be better served learning a less complicated and more repeatable drawstroke. One of the major difficulties with the "press out" style drawstroke is consistency. With a standard, modern drawstroke, where the gun is brought relatively straight to the target from the holster, with minimal training and repetition, it is not difficult for the average shooter to develop a good degree of consistency in being able to simply look at and focus on their intended POA on target, and to subconsciously draw the gun while allowing their body to self-adjust and bring the gun and sites right to that exact point. It is kind of uncanny how this occurs at a subconscious level, but the fact remains, this is a fairly common component of hand/eye coordination that is easily trained (unless it is trained in a manner that might over-complicate the matter).
Some of the performance deficiencies with the press out drawstroke is there actually seems to be a marked decrease in the consistency with which you can bring the sites to the exact point at which you are focusing. Also, many shooters appear to artificially decrease the speed of various parts of drawstroke in an effort to see the sites as early as possible, ultimately resulting in a slower drawstroke. Additionally, the motion of punching the gun out straight to the target from a high #3 position at partial extension, with the sites in the eyeline or beginning to rise within the eyeline, seems to increase the possibility in which shooters will inevitably experience "muzzle whip" due to punching the gun out more forcefully (in an effort to regain the speed they've lost in slowing down the initial stages of drawstroke to catch the sites early on in the #3 / partial extension). If muzzle whip is experienced, inevitably it means a significant decrease in the consistency of being able to focus on what you want to shoot and being able to bring the sites to that exact spot.
Here's a few examples of the press out style drawstroke, to help people understand:
One of the first basic differences from a more conventional drawstroke is, the gun is brought high in front of the face, usually by dropping the elbows and/or raising the forearms, putting the gun and sites relatively in front of the face or close to it. The gun is then pressed out straight to the target, the idea being that you can "ride the sites" to the target with your eye and will end up with the sites at the exact POA on target. Todd Green is a proponent of this drawstroke, teaches it, and I don't think anyone can argue against him certainly having a good degree of skill and performance. That being said, some methods may work well for those that put in significant time and effort with them, and also those that might possibly have the physiological traits that mesh well with a particular technique. What works for one may not necessarily work for all. Here are a few other examples. Some are very exaggerated in raising the gun up into the eyeline. What you'll notice on many of them, is between the time the gun is raised into the eyeline and the press out to target, you can measurably see there is probably a good 0.2-0.4 tenths of a second in speed that could be shaved from the drawstroke by simply bringing the gun straight out to the target with a more conventional drawstroke.
Speaking from personal experience, I gave the press out I think 1 year's worth of effort, including with sporadic IDPA matches and classifiers throughout that year, and the end result is that I found myself to be much less consistent than I was when using a more conventional drawstroke.
As far as the actual metronome goes, what I would say is, anything that can help a shooter begin to learn consciously and ultimately subconsciously gauging speed will possibly be beneficial to try out. Eventually, reaching higher levels of skill, a shooter will be able to gauge speed, gauge all of the variables involved in hitting a particular target, and will know how to vary their speed and exercise of the fundamentals to make the hits on target. For example, instead of only having 2 speeds, slow and fast, a good shooter will be able to shoot at a variety of speeds, which are ultimately dictated by the difficulty of the shot, size, and distance of the target. An excellent shooter will have a near infinite variability in being able to shoot consistently at almost any speed, such as going from 0.5-1.0 second splits for very tight shots and or shots at extreme distance, to 0.25 second splits running at a good pace for a generously sized target, to running at a high rate of speed like 0.12-.14 second splits for close shots on extremely large targets, or large steel targets where there are no scoring zones. Considering that, I could see how a metronome could help shooters, particularly newer shooters, to get used to firing in cadence and firing consistently at certain speeds. That being said, it would be good to keep in mind that, once you reach a certain skill level and level of consistency, these habits should be ingrained into the subconscious for the best effect. So I think beyond a certain point in experience and skill, something like a metronome or being stuck on cadence might not have any beneficial effect, and could actually be detrimental to a small to moderate degree in terms of a shooter artificially restricting their performance to match the metronome.
breakingcontact
TGT Addict
I dont do the press out draw stroke. I think guys think it looks cool and "tactical".
Im not entirely sure but I think this may have came out of the LEO/mil world where guys are wearing arming and it restricts some movements.
Mostly i was interested with shooting on the beat instead of shooting trying to achieve certain split times and only knowing after the string of fire what you actually did.
Im not entirely sure but I think this may have came out of the LEO/mil world where guys are wearing arming and it restricts some movements.
Mostly i was interested with shooting on the beat instead of shooting trying to achieve certain split times and only knowing after the string of fire what you actually did.
breakingcontact
TGT Addict
Right. Like lined up in a stack or from the high ready.
Not the most efficient for target shooters? Id say target shooters dont worry about a draw stroke at all and competitive shooters dont do this press out thing.
breakingcontact
TGT Addict
Got to say it on the beat or it dont count.
I see (I have?) issues with many of the things shared explicitly and implicitly in the video.
I echo the 30,000 foot view SIG-Fiend shared- working way too hard and complicating what should be simple. Anyone who trains a pres-out enough to make it fast would be faster had they trained a "normal" draw.
My biggest worry relates to teaching people to shoot on a beat. Making the gun go bang at a particular moment induces many errors and is more likely to induce error the less experienced the shooter is. The man in the video delivered decent shots because he was a decent shooter with ingrained habits. I predict a novice would take this to the range and shank shots horribly.
Slow draws (slow execution of any skill) has a place in developing smoothness/fluidity and I shun robotic practice: step 1, stop, step 2, stop, step 3 stop. I believe Max Michele had one of the best videos on the draw I ever watched and in it he observe three "points." He may have called them "contacts";hand on grip, second hand on gun, final presentation. Simple, smooth, fast, efficient. Robotic stepping processes trains stops and jerkiness and slowed
I can't agree with the thinking there is one draw for all occasions thinking, let alone the idea that one always draws to that high gun close in front of face position every time. Draw to there if you need to draw to there, draw to full extension if that is warranted. I've drawn to weirder positions in matches. But, do "this thing" every time because, "this possible scenario" might happen strikes me as illogical.
Just my thoughts.
I echo the 30,000 foot view SIG-Fiend shared- working way too hard and complicating what should be simple. Anyone who trains a pres-out enough to make it fast would be faster had they trained a "normal" draw.
My biggest worry relates to teaching people to shoot on a beat. Making the gun go bang at a particular moment induces many errors and is more likely to induce error the less experienced the shooter is. The man in the video delivered decent shots because he was a decent shooter with ingrained habits. I predict a novice would take this to the range and shank shots horribly.
Slow draws (slow execution of any skill) has a place in developing smoothness/fluidity and I shun robotic practice: step 1, stop, step 2, stop, step 3 stop. I believe Max Michele had one of the best videos on the draw I ever watched and in it he observe three "points." He may have called them "contacts";hand on grip, second hand on gun, final presentation. Simple, smooth, fast, efficient. Robotic stepping processes trains stops and jerkiness and slowed
I can't agree with the thinking there is one draw for all occasions thinking, let alone the idea that one always draws to that high gun close in front of face position every time. Draw to there if you need to draw to there, draw to full extension if that is warranted. I've drawn to weirder positions in matches. But, do "this thing" every time because, "this possible scenario" might happen strikes me as illogical.
Just my thoughts.
breakingcontact
TGT Addict
Ill cancel my 511 metronome order. Mostly posted for discussion as i found it novel. Perhaps it was unduly so.
It's novel. It's not totally without merit. Shooting on a beat would be similar to engaging fast moving swingers. Though one might expect the shots would be visually activated if one had observed 8 previous shooters engage the swinger the cadence would be "known" and one could shoot it on a "beat."
It was posted for discussion of it's strengths, value, merit. Opinions were offered.
It was an interesting find.
It was posted for discussion of it's strengths, value, merit. Opinions were offered.
It was an interesting find.
breakingcontact
TGT Addict
The one pistol class I took had us shooting on the beep. I humbly admit I was kind of like the guy in the video. It didnt bother me or slow me down because it was a basic class and ive already trained shooting faster than that. Could be a bad thing for a new shooter though.
Steven that reminded me, do you teach your basic students to take up the trigger slack as they are extending the gun? (once it is pointed down range of course)
Steven that reminded me, do you teach your basic students to take up the trigger slack as they are extending the gun? (once it is pointed down range of course)
Must...not...be...a...smartass!
Why were you asked to shoot on the beep?
I don't teach... that.
I show them a picture of a gun-shot wound to the foot.
I discuss the criminal and civil liability implicit in firing an errant shot
I teach them to keep their finger off the trigger until their sights are on the target.
I am ok with the NRA's addition, "and you are ready to shoot."
An adult can sort the rest out for themselves.
breakingcontact
TGT Addict
I asked because a basic pistol course I took through a different trainer was teaching just that to basic students. Like student who take 20 seconds to do a mag change students.Must...not...be...a...smartass!
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breakingcontact
TGT Addict
I think they were trying to push the shooters to recover recoil quicker and shoot faster (wasnt fast, like 1 second splits)
I can see using the metronome to push yourself once you've established your own rhythm. I don't like the rhythm of the guy in the video
Telling a noob to take up the slack on a 1911 would be a bad idea. Probably the same result with an Apex'd M&P. There's not much "slack" there
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