Setup a Small automated workshop

[kusai]

I m thinking about setting up a small workshop for reloading. I want to automate most of the things since I am a total noob at reloading and have absolutely no experience. Most would be for myself plus I can sell some to friends and family if they need. Any suggestions ? Dont want to run a full commercial ammo factory but a small size would be good enough.

 

[Younggun]

Not sure that you could get an automated setup at low enough cost to save money without running it on a large commercial scale. Reloading isn't hard, start slow and you will be crankin out rounds in no time. Depending on the volume you want to turn out and what you want to spend there are tones of options.

Even an automated setup would require QC check and maintenance, You'll still need to know what SHOULD be happening at each step. If I want my reloading automated I usually just get Winchester to take care of it for me.

 

[LJH]

I sort of agree with younggun. Most start reloading on a single stage and once they understand what is going on, might move up to a turret and then a progressive. Think baby steps.

 

[TexasRedneck]

Bear in mind that you'll also need licensing from BATF....an' in most cases, you will NOT be able to load in your home.

Let us know what trade name yer gonna sell under - because, with all due respect, someone without a clue that's gonna reload is someone I want to avoid at ALL costs.

 

[kusai]

Hmmm, I just had this idea of partnering with someone local to do it. Not sure about legality of selling reloaded stuff (not commercially) but just within the circle to compensate the cost and overheads.

 

[TexasRedneck]

As a practical matter, why would an experienced reloader want a partner with NO experience? I ain't tryin' to bust on ya dude - but sit back and think practically on this....it just makes no sense, IMO.

 

[scap99]

Hmmm, I just had this idea of partnering with someone local to do it. Not sure about legality of selling reloaded stuff (not commercially) but just within the circle to compensate the cost and overheads.

Can't sell any reloads from what I understand. I don't even give reloads away due to the liability.

 

[kusai]

Yup with all due respect not everyone with experience can afford full automated reloading setup. And FYI some of the best chef's in the world work in kitchen and not run a business, so ppl should do what they are good at.

 

[TexasRedneck]

Your initial post was referencing to YOU setting it up and operating it "for yourself and friends and family". My warning was regards to making something you were unqualified and unlicensed to do - something that would maim/injure/kill someone (potentially) if ya screwed up.....and with no background in reloading, you'd be an accident looking for a place to set up shop with lines for lawsuits. But....do a ya will.

 

[kusai]

Thanks, thats why need someone experienced to help me. Dont wanna start anything on my own and experiment cause I m bad at it.

 

[ChunkyMonkey]

Go to the gun shows and find those that sell reloads. Get their input and can see about the possibility of partnering. Sounds more like you'd take the role of financier.

 

[Deavis]

First, it is not illegal to sell what you load to family and friends. You only need a license from the BATFE if you are engaged in the manufacture of ammunition as a business. The definition of being engaged is in the law, you can read up on it. Search for the text of the GCA or go to their website and check that out. Regardless, if you manufacture, the TTB will want the excise tax you are required to charge when you sell that ammunition. 11% and don't stiff them.


Second, automation is great but you may want to learn something about loading before making any choices. At the home level, the bes automation is a Super 1050 with a P/W autodrive and a Mr. Bulletfeeder to feed the bullets. It is a clutch based system and works okay, but it is hardly hands off as it has no trips for component levels. Hangs can be catastrophic and broken index pawls is not uncommon depnding on your skill and setup. You can automate a 650XL as well with a P/W drive but that 1050 is smoother IMHO. Dependin on your pockets, you can step it up, but entry inline presses are $20k and that doesn't include support equipment.


Rifle presses are $40k starting. You'll want a primer filler, Dillon makes one that is okay but Ammoload's is heads and shoulders better and worth the $1.5k you pay for it. Yo7u will also want to process your brass, 40S&W in a 9mm pres is bad news when it is automated and even a Super 1050 can't always swage NT crimps. Not to mention trying to prime a 45GAP or SPP 45ACP case. You can feel the swage rod resstance by hand but the autodrive doesn't car. Earmuffs help, but primers going off is loud and always annoying.The amount of automation will depend on your choices and your budget. If you want to setup a 1050 in 264 Win Mag, good luck with the bulletfeeder. You'll need a custom plate and Rick is so busy it could take a year to get one. Questions are good, lots to learn.

 

[kusai]

Thanks for the insight Deavis, appreciate your input.

 

[shortround]

With the cost of components, and even once-fired brass, you cannot compete with major ammo companies who make all their components in house, unless you find a niche market.

Several years ago, I bought some "new manufacture" .357 Sig ammo from a vendor at the gun show. When I weighed the rounds, they varied wildly in weight. I pulled all the bullets, and weighed each charge. The charges varied +/- 2.7 grains.

None of the charges matched anything in my reloading manuals, and even the heaviest charge was below minimum charge of any powder listed.

I have not seen that vendor at any local show in over five years.

 

[cleric]

How many rounds do you intend to make? Have you done a roi calculation?

get some numbers md let the math decide.

 

[ROGER4314]

With the extra care and inspection that I put into my reloads, I'd need to charge $1.00/round to make it pay off. Cost savings isn't why I reload. I load because my rounds are tuned exactly for the shooting that I do and there's NO way factory rounds will do what mine will do in accuracy and reliability.

In the past 3 weeks, I've spent over $1000 getting my reloading gear updated and materials stocked up. Hurricane IKE made a direct hit on my house and I had to pack the gear up and place it in storage so my house could be repaired. It's time to get it set up again. $1000 spent and I already had the presses, dies, scales and other equipment. If I was doing my reloading for cost savings alone, I'd be a damned fool. A grand will buy a LOT of ammo from WW!

TXR told you right even though it wasn't what you wanted to hear. Reloading is not something that you just step into and produce excellent ammo. I always cringe when a newbie tells us how his buddies talked him into getting a high volume progressive loader initially and he cranked her up and made 300-400 rounds. You don't know what the Hell you have and if I valued my home, car, bank account and all of my future earnings, I wouldn't allow anyone to use those rounds until I was absolutely certain what I produced on that loader.

When you can predict the results of your reloading steps then you're getting somewhere. Experience is the only thing that will get you to that point. Keep good records, shoot the ammo, test it and when you can predict what it will do, then get back with us.

Your idea is a good one. How about specializing in .45acp because it's scarce, now or .40 cal because it's so popular, you may find a niche that could make some money. It's just premature for you to consider it now. Earn your credibility and we'll talk again.

Do you know what "acp" means? How many grains of powder are in a pound? Explain the difference in .45acp and .45LC. How does each cartridge headspace? What is headspace? ....................That's a good start!

Flash

 

[Rifleman55]

Before you even think about starting to reload buy a good manual, if you can find a copy get the ABCs of reloading and a Lyman or other book then read them at least twice.

 

[Younggun]

Not everyone reloads for extremly accurate target loads. I crank out 9mm and .40 for the savings, no other reason. I do small batches and test for safety, and I am as confident as possible of the safety of those rounds before testing.

If you want to get into reloading I would reccommend buying a manual. Most have a good bit of information on safety practices and reloading basics. Then invest in either a single stage or turret style press and go on round at a time and inspect each round until your are confident in each step of the process. From there a progressive may be where you want to go depending on what you feel it's worth for your time and the volume you are tring to reload.

If you are planning on reloading for rifle there is alot more involved because accuracy is much more important and the variables can make big differences in accuracy. Many like Roger go to great lengths to get the most accurate results possible. I use my rifle loads for hunting inside 200 yrds so I have not put the time in to develop sub MOA loads.

Decide what you are trying to get from your loads, is it accuracy or savings. Then get a manual and read over it a few times. It will have plenty of enfo about headspace, case length, cartridge overall length, bullet weights and stability, pressure signs, etc. It's not hard to learn but safety must be your main goal. I personally would not want to be responsible for garanteeing thousands of rounds from an automated press are safe.

 

[Deavis]

With the cost of components, and even once-fired brass, you cannot compete with major ammo companies who make all their components in house, unless you find a niche market.

Yeah, that isn't so true. There is money to be made in the market. Remember, kusai, you aren't competing against major ammo companies in their market, especially if your product line uses fired casings. If your business model is to compete with only new casings, well... you either failed economics or can't do math. There are plenty of ways to make money outside the niche market but you have to be smart and take advantage of every benefit a small business has over a large established business.

Several years ago, I bought some "new manufacture" .357 Sig ammo from a vendor at the gun show. When I weighed the rounds, they varied wildly in weight. I pulled all the bullets, and weighed each charge. The charges varied +/- 2.7 grains. None of the charges matched anything in my reloading manuals, and even the heaviest charge was below minimum charge of any powder listed.

I've seen you post that before and the story in the other thread was that you weighed every cartridge and they showed too much variation in your opinion. That was different from the charge weight and when I asked, you didn't post back, so I'm happy to see that information come out. While 2.7gr is completely unacceptable, the fact that data didn't match a load manual isn't too odd. You have no idea what powder the manufacturer used and if he was of a decent size (ordering powder in at least 1000lb per order), he was probably using canister powder. Who made that ammo? Please share, I'm curious.

Do you know what "acp" means? How many grains of powder are in a pound? Explain the difference in .45acp and .45LC. How does each cartridge headspace? What is headspace? ....................That's a good start!

Not important (what does OCR stand for?), 7000 (easily found online), no such thing as .45LC (I hope that was a trick), mouth/rim, and distance from a chambering datum to the bolt face. Now, go ask the people who run most of the machines producing very complex objects, such as a plasma television how the object they make works. Go ask an LCD line worker why the electrodes in the display are transparent, is it the metal workfunction or its atomic mass (trick question). Can you explain how to produce digressive burning powder versus progressive with coatings and then with physical manupulation? How about explaining how electron mobility translates into frequency that is available to process this webpage and the layers of the protocol, which you must name, that brought you this message.

The point is that ammunition is a commodity and it isn't necessary to know everything about it to make that commodity, even a great example of that commodity. You could hand kusai an excellent tooling setup, top notch components, and he could manufacture ammunition as good as many people who spend years futzing with their loads. No different than any other commodity market at the core. That is why kids with very little machining experience can run a CNC mill and produce parts of superior quality to the "old hand" sitting over there laughing at them right before he gets his pink slip. That is the beauty of a commodity market, for better or worse.

The engineering has already been done for the business he is probably looking to get into, but since we haven't given him much time to get his full plan out, maybe I'm wrong. Its clear the experience is lacking, but that is easily acquired and I don't think he is suggesting that he's going to buy a press tomorrow and throw out his shingle.

 

[macshooter]

Interesting thread. I knew of nothing beyond a manual Dillion. I suppose I thought ammo companies had 1000 people pulling levers on those or something.