RACE, INHERENT INTELLIGENCE, & POLITICS

[OutlawStar]

I have revised that opinion. I now hold that, in general, there is little or no difference in native intelligence.

What is driving you to ignore biology? Are you ignoring the studies concluding there are IQ variances from race to race?

 

[popper]

Urban Black Fatherlessnes is a creature of LBJ’s not-so ‘’Great Society’’. Nope, started earlier than that. IQ is distributed through nature. Still lots of 'tribalism' around, biggest cause of poor people. My church is trying to 'get' another 'minority' church to support. The 5 we have still don't pay anything to the 'general' fund that supports the other 4. Ethnic groups tend to 'bunch' together.

 

[DaBull]

What is driving you to ignore biology? Are you ignoring the studies concluding there are IQ variances from race to race?

The correlation between race and test scores does not strictly reflect biology. To take an IQ test, you have to have had the opportunity to develop a measurable IQ...so we are talking about a young adult being tested at the very least.

Not all young adults attended a high quality school with new textbooks, working computers, and low student to teacher ratios; had parents who had the time or inclination to help them with their homework to reinforce learning or keep up/get ahead; could afford a tutor; had time to study rather than having to work afterschool to help pay the mortgage or take care of their siblings while their parent(s) worked, etc. If these factors did not affect IQ test scores, then poor whites would be scoring as high as middle class and rich whites simply because they are white.

I think one factor that I don't mention above that comes closest to race is culture..which is nothing more than a collection of values, beliefs, behavioral norms, and expectations. Some races/ethnicities place a high value on education as a means for improving their lot in life and this is reflected in the behavior of their parents and kids IN SPITE of living in a poor neighborhood or bad school district. No matter what, parents FIND TIME to help their children learn and kids MAKE TIME to study. As others have pointed out, valuing marriage (or at least a two parent household where additional parenting and mentoring resources are availble to the children) is also a feature of culture, particularly religious ones.

Unfortunately, woke culture teaches all kids (all races/ethnicities) that the current system is unfair, so it is better to become a social media influencer or vote for socialist wealth redistribution than to study or work hard.

 

[OutlawStar]

To take an IQ test, you have to have had the opportunity to develop a measurable IQ...so we are talking about a young adult being tested at the very least.

Does that make the IQ tests of gorillas, other animals, those with mental disabilities, and those otherwise not a young adult invalid?

James Watson did a gigantic study on race and IQ correlation. Woke mob showed up and stripped him of all his accomplishments then proudly declared the consensus among scientists concluded there was no correlation between race and IQ and continue to bury his work and silence those who want to study it further. This is where my overall doubt and skepticism comes from; if the woke mob shows up and says the science is settled on race and IQ, and every study in the last 100 years is simply wrong I then develop more doubts about "the consensus".

I agree with many of your (and others) points of socioeconomics. Even if you're gifted and have an IQ of 160 but your entire life is only ever shown degenerate stupidity, you're not likely going to realize the environment you were raised in is terrible and break out to become a doctor.

 

[DaBull]

Sorr

Does that make the IQ tests of gorillas, other animals, those with mental disabilities, and those otherwise not a young adult invalid?

James Watson did a gigantic study on race and IQ correlation. Woke mob showed up and stripped him of all his accomplishments then proudly declared the consensus among scientists concluded there was no correlation between race and IQ and continue to bury his work and silence those who want to study it further. This is where my overall doubt and skepticism comes from; if the woke mob shows up and says the science is settled on race and IQ, and every study in the last 100 years is simply wrong I then develop more doubts about "the consensus".

I agree with many of your (and others) points of socioeconomics. Even if you're gifted and have an IQ of 160 but your entire life is only ever shown degenerate stupidity, you're not likely going to realize the environment you were raised in is terrible and break out to become a doctor.

Watson was an excellent biologist and will always be positively recognized for his Nobel Prize for DNA. On the subject of generalized intelligence assessment, the modern equivalent of the IQ test, it is best to read more current work by Educational Psychologists, Industrial Psychologists, Clinical Psychologists, Doctors of Education, and Human Resource professionals and many other academics and professionals who are advancing the science and practice of intelligence testing. Undoubtedly, there are genetic differences across peoples. Yesterday I read that the people of Europe and Asia have more Neanderthal DNA than Africans, because that's where those humans migrating from Africa encountered them. But those genetic differences related to intelligence and the degree of impact they have on intelligence is both tough to identify and quantify. Genes are a physical thing, but they only serve their purpose when they are activated...often by environmental factors. (For example, your genes predispose you to Alzheimers, but you don't actually get Alzheimers until your environment or bad life choices activate those genes). On the other hand, it is very easy to examine factors like nutrition (something that can help activate a gene!!!) and socio-economic, and these are showing stronger causal relationships to intelligence.

 

[leVieux]

Is discrimination allowed?
I thought it was illegal.

Do we need more laws against it?

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Discrimination administered by government liberals has been seen as laudable.

They cannot recognize their own massive hypocrisy.

$300/mo was a lot of money for project rats back in 1965, multiples of it became their goal. This created an entire ‘’welfare way of life’’ for generations. Their young dealt in illegal drugs. LBJ’s ‘’Great Society” had created another great social problem, which still ruins many lives.

As usual, liberals moved-on to find more societal issues to wreck.

“More Laws’’ seem to result in more problems. The massive mis-spending is never ended, as it would decrease dem votes.

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[leVieux]

What is driving you to ignore biology? Are you ignoring the studies concluding there are IQ variances from race to race?

I guess it is because I see only the professionals today, not their lower strata.

I have to admit to a sampling bias.

But the ‘’racial studies’’ I’ve seen all seem to have intentional inherent biases. Much of today’s ‘’science’’ is as bad & fraudulent as our media reporting.

 

[OutlawStar]

But those genetic differences related to intelligence and the degree of impact they have on intelligence is both tough to identify and quantify.

QFT. Not that people and animals are equivalent, but we've all had 1 really dumb dog/cat, and 1 really smart dog/cat and sometimes were the same breed.

FWIW, if there is an average IQ of 120 for race 1, and average IQ of 115 for race 2, thats generally too close for most of us to recognize, nor would 5IQ points really make a difference in just about anything. With life being a bell curve, the generalizations are somewhat disingenuous because of overall population sizes along with averages.

 

[DaBull]

I don't know what IQ test Watson used to draw his conclusions. In my field, the term "IQ test" is a red flag, as it tends to be used by people who don't know much about (modern) intelligence tests, because the term "IQ" dates back to the early 1900s and the very first cognitive ability tests...long before much of test theory was developed.

I am familiar with tests of generalized intelligence. These are tests given to adults to determine their aptitude for various dimensions of intelligence (e.g., math skills, verbal skills, spatial reasoning, etc), as well as to calculate an overall intelligence score. These are used to identify job applicants who meet minimum standard for a job's requirements, as well as select the most qualified applicant to hire if there are more applicants than there are vacancies. The tests are scaled such that meaningful, statistically significant differences are present. One of the big problems with such tests is that whites and asians tend to score higher on them than blacks and hispanics, which can lead to fewer black and hispanic hires, which can lead to charges of "culturally biased tests contributing to adverse impact". The math is there so they are defensible in a court of law should an applicant claim they were not hired because of a prohibited factor such as race or sex.

Bottom line, there are good tests out there, and we should not toss them out claiming they are racist. If the woke want to fix the problem, they will have to address massively difficult problems like socio-economic status and culture. You cannot simply ignore the tests and insist everybody be given a high paying job in the name of "equality". This is a losing strategy for businesses, the military, government, and our country.

 

[G O B]

Culture, or lack thereof is more important in intellect than any other factor.

 

[DaBull]

Culture, or lack thereof is more important in intellect than any other factor.

Peter Drucker once said "culture eats strategy for breakfast".

Today we are seeing decades of liberal investment in cultural change as evidenced by their control of public education and on up through the university system. Logic and evidence will not undue decades of indoctrination.

 

[BigRed]

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As a devout Southerner, adoptive Texan, & PG GG GS of an actual Confederate Colonel; I was raised to view Blacks as somewhat less ‘’intelligent’’ than other races. I was taught to help them whenever there was opportunity; but to not associate with them on a social basis.

My late Ancestors delighted in teaching Blacks basics of economics, especially in making them homeowners, not perpetual renters.

After a long career of teaching & cooperating with all races & ethnicities, I have revised that opinion. I now hold that, in general, there is little or no difference in native intelligence.

What, then is the invisible barrier holding many back ?

Our American Black ‘’elites’’ and educated first generation immigrants often observe in private that the media & leftist government’s continual oft-repeated claims that they are mistreated here in our USA, are not helping.

During long one-on-one teaching/work sessions with young Black African MD’s, I found them much easier to converse frankly with than our heavily pre-sensitized young domestic Black Docs.

Indeed, I now view all ‘’affirmative action’’ as harming rather than helping.

This has been especially evident in Medicine, Aviation, in some Military applications. Two of the brightest young folks recently were an actual Black NSA Rocket Scientist/Engineer, and a young Black Neurosurgeon.

There is Hope for us all, and for everyone.


leVieux

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Here is a book you might be interested in.

"Social Justice Fallacies" by Thomas Sowell

Amazon.com

I highly recommend it.

 

[Lead Belly]

What type of culture?

18 Elements of Culture​

1. Norms​

2. Languages​

3. Festivals​

4. Rituals and Ceremonies​

5. Holidays​

6. Pastimes​

7. Food​

8. Architecture​

9. Religions​

10. Values​

11. Taboos​

12. Sports​

13. Clothing and Outfits​

14. Music​

15. Social Hierarchy​

16. Symbols​

17. Dance​

18. Art​

 

[DaBull]

What type of culture?

18 Elements of Culture​

1. Norms​

2. Languages​

3. Festivals​

4. Rituals and Ceremonies​

5. Holidays​

6. Pastimes​

7. Food​

8. Architecture​

9. Religions​

10. Values​

11. Taboos​

12. Sports​

13. Clothing and Outfits​

14. Music​

15. Social Hierarchy​

16. Symbols​

17. Dance​

18. Art​

Drucker was talking about organizational culture and its ability to obstruct a planned organizational change-- unless the change planners included cultural change (perhaps 1, 2, 4, 10, 13, 15, 16 above) as part of the organizational change, the change effort will fail. Norms can also be codified as rules or laws, this is where things like hiring practices and anti-discrimination laws come from. Some now say all organizational change is really cultural change. Change is easiest to motivate in others when there is a great danger, catalyst, or inflection point. This is why COVID was amped up...to create the desire to return to normal...which could be hijacked to create a "new" normal.

You might have heard this idea in the form of: Never let a good crisis go to waste.

 

[leVieux]

QFT. Not that people and animals are equivalent, but we've all had 1 really dumb dog/cat, and 1 really smart dog/cat and sometimes were the same breed.

FWIW, if there is an average IQ of 120 for race 1, and average IQ of 115 for race 2, thats generally too close for most of us to recognize, nor would 5IQ points really make a difference in just about anything. With life being a bell curve, the generalizations are somewhat disingenuous because of overall population sizes along with averages.

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Biological characteristics follow ‘’bell curve’’ distributions; so using your figures, there’d be a lot of overlap. So much that it would be very difficult to identify & prove a 4% difference overall.

I am not a behavioral scientist, so won’t speculate further.

The Black people I’ve associated with have already been through layers of competitive selective processes, to be sure, but they are very bright and clever.

In addition, they are from all parts of the world, including subSharan Africa. In private, they tell that they don’t understand American Black’s dissatisfactions with the USA.

leVieux

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Here is a book you might be interested in.

"Social Justice Fallacies" by Thomas Sowell

Amazon.com

I highly recommend it.

Thanks; the libtards hate Sowell b/c he proves them wrong & illogical so ofen.

 

[popper]

IQ tests test your education. And sets the 'standard' based on previous 'tests'. There is NO real test for 'intelligence/brain power'. Closest you can get is 'ability to learn'. Give a 5yr old a calculus test - fail. Test AFTER a calculus lesson and repeat.

 

[DaBull]

IQ tests test your education. And sets the 'standard' based on previous 'tests'. There is NO real test for 'intelligence/brain power'. Closest you can get is 'ability to learn'. Give a 5yr old a calculus test - fail. Test AFTER a calculus lesson and repeat.

The value of any test is measured by its ability to accomplish its intended purpose. A calculus test is not intended for 5 years olds, so it is expected to be useless. I imagine there are tests to determine if a pre-school child has a learning disability. It would be similarly useless if used to identify high school graduates who would make good managers.

The standard for any test is the mean (sometimes mode or median) and variance (often 2nd and 3rd standard deviations) of the population that the test is intended for. These are referred to as test norms. So, if its an adult intelligence test, a given person's score would be compared to the mean of those adults who have previously taken the test. If the individual scores 2-3 standard deviations above that mean, they are truly exceptionally smart--among the top few percent of all their peers. By design, there are few test takers who score at the edge of the bell curve where the 2nd and 3rd standard deviations lie. So, in a hiring situation, minimum cutoff scores are determined to identify a pool of reasonably high scoring candidates to consider. Here's where you get "lowering the bar" to allow more diversity...since some minorities score lower on intelligence tests than others.

There are other statistical and methodological requirements for all tests broadly called validity and reliability evidence. If a tests lacks this level of support, they are worthless even for their intended purpose. Much like the little tests in Cosmo magazine--"Does he really love you?...take this test".

One last thing about tests: all tests are DESIGNED TO DISCRIMINATE. More specificially, they discriminate between high and low scorers. This is LEGAL descrimination, because a reliable and valid, selection test does not consider non-job related criteria like race, but only job-related criteria like intelligence, personaliity factors, or past work experience. This is why the woke want tests GONE...the theory and science is there to PROVE someone is not qualified for a job.

 

[Lead Belly]

One last thing about tests: all tests are DESIGNED TO DISCRIMINATE. More specificially, they discriminate between high and low scorers.

Test bias. May be intentional or unintentional. My wife spent a few decades writing certification exams to be administered by Pearson and bias was the bane of her existence. They'd have focus groups after a launch then go rewrite a good chunk of the exams.

https://www.pearsonassessments.com/content/dam/school/global/clinical/us/assets/pcat/test-bias-fairness-and-standardized-admission-tests.pdf

 

[OutlawStar]

One last thing about tests: all tests are DESIGNED TO DISCRIMINATE.

Strange claim for things like math and science that are either right or wrong on a test. Maybe I'm a little dumb but I can't imagine trying to create a test to make a certain race look smarter than another, ceterus paribus.

 

[leVieux]

Strange claim for things like math and science that are either right or wrong on a test. Maybe I'm a little dumb but I can't imagine trying to create a test to make a certain race look smarter than another, ceterus paribus.

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“Discrimination” of itself is not wrong or undesirable, unless it unduly harms or limits another.

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