Proof that Concealed Carry permit holders live in a dream world, Part One

[SC-Texas]

Yeah but they didn't give 3 people guns.

 

[winchster]

I'd buy ABC's test if the shooter wasn't informed about which student had a gun.

 

[Glockster69]

Obviously some people here that refuse to follow-up address me directly, think I am something that I am not, so I'll attempt to set it straight.

I am not a lawyer, judge, state rep., US rep., supreme court judge, US pres nor in any other way have I had any involvement in writing a state or national law. I didn't take away or otherwise alter any constitutionally provided rights by something I've personally done. I don't like most of the laws on the books, especially those related to gun ownership. I've never purported to support or condone TX's or any other states CHL/CCW laws or any other laws not granted by the U.S. Constitution.

All I implied was that, under current TX law, the handgun proficiency test to pass the range portion of the TX CHL license training was, in my limited experience, flawed.

What I said in the original post was intended to be just that simple. I am not the enemy guys. I am just a puts trying to survive within the law. Ya'll are kicking my ass and I don't deserve it.

 

[M. Sage]

I actually thought about how to do this test scientifically.

The gloves are actually more or less accurate as far as the effects adrenaline will have on you. The goggles are necessary from a safety standpoint. So keep those. Don't expect them to carry a level 2 retention holster with a full size pistol in it at the appendix, though. That was ridiculous.

Maybe we should actually recreate the test, but do it right... Anybody got access to any materials we'd need? Simunitions pistols and a place that we could at least rig up as a classroom?

The right way to run it is this:

• The shooter would come from the same pool as the CHL.
• The CHL would be placed in the room randomly.
• 50% of the time, the classroom would NOT contain a CHL. This is a control group.
• Allow shooters to practice their draw from concealment, with the holster they'll be using.
• Use a real holster meant for concealed carry. That means one without retention.

 

[winchster]

I'm game. I'd show up as a subject. BTW I agree with your assessment mike.

 

[M. Sage]

I'm game. I'd show up as a subject. BTW I agree with your assessment mike.

I was also thinking it would be nice to get a good cross section of skills, too. That could make the random shooter/defender assignments a little more interesting IMO.

Experienced shooter in a control classroom would be a complete bloodbath...

 

[matefrio]

Yeah but they didn't give 3 people guns.

Or one person three guns.

 

[Bithabus]

All I implied was that, under current TX law, the handgun proficiency test to pass the range portion of the TX CHL license training was, in my limited experience, flawed.

It's not flawed, it's supposed to be easy so everyone can pass. Don't tell the Liberals.

 

[Glockster69]

It's not flawed, it's supposed to be easy so everyone can pass. Don't tell the Liberals.

Cha CHING! Fee (tax) collection time.

 

[Texas1911]

Cha CHING! Fee (tax) collection time.

Has more to do with Texas being a "shall issue" state and the fact that the law enforcement test is the basis of the CHL test. If you think the CHL test is too easy, then you should see the standard that LEOs are held to.

Fact is, making someone shoot tighter groups on a square range with no drawing, stress, or threat really proves absolutely nothing. It doesn't make them a safer shooter, it doesn't make them more prepared, it's just your vision of what "proficiency" is.

90% of the people that own guns are unsafe in some form or fashion, and of the total amount of gun owners you can assume that 80 - 90% of them have absolutely little, if any, proficiency with a handgun. Shooting tight groups is only part of the equation. Doing it rapidly, while moving, using cover, engaging multiple targets, and working through malfunctions and reloads is a much broader picture, and we don't even test LEOs or even the military on that in regards to handguns.

So where do you draw the line? ...

 

[ChunkyMonkey]

The LEO test truly is easy. I don't see how someone can't pass, but yet I have seen some fail, lol. Fortunately my agency has a proactive approach and our "fun shoots" have become more active instead of the qualification boredom of shooting a stationary target.

 

[Texas1911]

The LEO test truly is easy. I don't see how someone can't pass, but yet I have seen some fail, lol. Fortunately my agency has a proactive approach and our "fun shoots" have become more active instead of the qualification boredom of shooting a stationary target.

I've seen some guys fail, repeatedly. One guy was really frustrated, but it's a day late and a dollar short when you're on the qual line.

 

[ChunkyMonkey]

Yepyep

 

[TexasRedneck]

Now if we could just teach LEO's to put their vehicles in park.......not lock their keys in the cars......wipe the donut crumbs off their shirts......

 

[navyguy]

That is a rather old piece and has been rebuffed by many including the NRA. Here's a good article.

ABC News & Diane Sawyer Easter Soup Nazis: No Guns For You!

 

[tweek]

I actually thought about how to do this test scientifically.

The gloves are actually more or less accurate as far as the effects adrenaline will have on you. The goggles are necessary from a safety standpoint. So keep those. Don't expect them to carry a level 2 retention holster with a full size pistol in it at the appendix, though. That was ridiculous.

Maybe we should actually recreate the test, but do it right... Anybody got access to any materials we'd need? Simunitions pistols and a place that we could at least rig up as a classroom?

The right way to run it is this:

• The shooter would come from the same pool as the CHL.
• The CHL would be placed in the room randomly.
• 50% of the time, the classroom would NOT contain a CHL. This is a control group.
• Allow shooters to practice their draw from concealment, with the holster they'll be using.
• Use a real holster meant for concealed carry. That means one without retention.

I think I'm going to have to talk to Chris and see if we can set this up in the fall. Proactive has just about everything needed for this. The only problem I see is the surprise portion. In the video the CHL was setup so he didnt know the class was going to be attacked. But we might be able to come up with something.

Ignoring everything else from ABC the one take away that I agree with is: train. They are right in that if you do not train and prepare you are going to have a very hard time in a real situation. Think about being in a convenience store. You walk in, go to the back coolers to grab a tasty and refreshing Shasta. Just as you grab the bottle, thuggie the clown and he side kick crackmonkey bust in brandishing their ghetto heaters. Don't let my names fool you, these guys actually thought things out and have decided a scroched earth approach is best: kill everybody then empty the registers (they looked up how to make the cash drawer open - google works for thugs too). So bang bang the two customer at the front are down. Now what? Hope you've done some training.

 

[London]

Glockster69-

I don't think anybody's trying to hit you over the head, but yeah, some people (myself included) get really frustrated to hear "One of our own" endorsing stricter gun legislation- i.e. gun control. Many of us have made it a life's mission to increase our gun rights and fight those who would like to see us disarmed, even in a miniscule way.

When you consider all of the time and effort we have done reading statistics, doing field research, spending time with those who know little or nothing about guns, gun rights, and why both are important, it definitely touches a nerve to see someone trying to undo that. Especially someone who is supposed to be on our side.

Arizona allows unlicensed concealed and open carry. There is no proficiency test. And yet we haven't seen the epidemic of accidental shootings, negligent discharges, etc. that everyone worries so much about. Your heart is in the right place but your opinion is not supported by established facts. And really, "Safety" is the #1 most popular given reason for gun control. Don't fall for it, you've come too far to be fooled by red herrings.

 

[Rum Runner]

1) The conclusion promoted by the video is BS for numerous reasons. Some flaws have been pointed out above, I can point out numerous others if needed. I think that minus the agenda there are some important things to take away from the video.
2) The founders did not build this government in an attempt to legislate stupidity. So, the current CHL standards are probably higher than they should be.
3) 95% or more of gun holders could use more training.

Image if the those opposed to guns treated them the same way they'ed like to treat drugs. Take the time and money spend trying to make them illegal, regulate them, police them, etc. and put the same effort into educations, training, etc. Wouldn't you end up with a result we'd all be happier with?

 

[navyguy]

Think about being in a convenience store. You walk in, go to the back coolers to grab a tasty and refreshing Shasta. Just as you grab the bottle, thuggie the clown and he side kick crackmonkey bust in brandishing their ghetto heaters. Don't let my names fool you, these guys actually thought things out and have decided a scroched earth approach is best: kill everybody then empty the registers (they looked up how to make the cash drawer open - google works for thugs too). So bang bang the two customer at the front are down. Now what? Hope you've done some training.

That is probably a more realistic occurrence than an active shooter entering a college lecture room. We know that has happened and was devastating, but it seems like convince stores are targeted quite often. I'm always very alert in convince stores, and usually stay out of those that are in questionable neighborhoods. Of course the best neighborhood and cleanest looking store does not guarantee safety.

 

[Jakashh]

That is a rather old piece and has been rebuffed by many including the NRA. Here's a good article.

ABC News & Diane Sawyer Easter Soup Nazis: No Guns For You!

Apart from this one article, debbie schlussel is a fucking joke lol.

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