Please help support this cause, ATF lies their way into convicting another innocent

[txinvestigator]

Re: Please help support this cause, ATF lies their way into convicting another innoce

I'll just add that intent to vioate the law is not what is required for an offense, on some offenses intent to commit the specific acts that are proscribed ARE. On other offenses, knowingly, recklessly and with criminal negligence are all that is needed.

I am no fan of the ATF. but I like to make my OWN decisions, and I still wonder what lies they told here.

 

[cuate]

Re: Please help support this cause, ATF lies their way into convicting another innoce

Innocent or otherwise, what brought on the investigation was the Barrett 50cal. rifle being found by Mexican authorities in Mexico....Now I personally am aware of the abuses throughout the years of the Feds, namely the BATFE , some by the FBI, and the bribe ridden Mexicans from the lowest Cop to the top of Mexican authority....As well as the Drug Cartel's quick murder or massacre of anyone they choose...And true, the reports of BATFE letting guns go into Mexico so as to
aid in their so called investigation of same....

Donate to his cause ? I never made even of half of 118,000 per year in my working days and I'm on "retirement pennies" now....I thinknot !

 

[zembonez]

Re: Please help support this cause, ATF lies their way into convicting another innoce

It's far too easy to get all wound up on one side of a story like this. I doubt 1/3 of the facts are being presented here. I still believe that a man doesn't get convicted on SIX COUNTS without possessing a little guilt... somewhere.

The spin in this story is silly. It does not matter that he was a military man. It does not matter that he was a cop. It does not matter that he loved his kid. What matters is whether he was operating a side business buying and selling guns outside the law. If you run up enough red flags, eventually you are going to get somebody's attention.

The "ATF lies their way into convicting an innocent man" line is a bit ridiculous.

We are not hearing anywhere near all of this story.

 

[Texan2]

Re: Please help support this cause, ATF lies their way into convicting another innoce

 

[Rum Runner]

Re: Please help support this cause, ATF lies their way into convicting another innoce

Sig,
With all due respect, I think you may be letting emotion cloud your judgement. I think most of us sympathize with your feelings about the ATF. Just the most recent swing at semi-auto shotguns along with publishing the personal information of people who voiced opposition makes the ATF a scum sucking entity.

However this particular case stinks to high hell.
1) "John Shipley, a Federal Bureau of Investigation agent in El Paso" Ok, so ignorance of firearm laws is out.
2) "Mr. Shipley met the agents in a parking lot on the west side of El Paso and handed over false sales records" Oops
3) "Mr. Shipley's lawyers said that the records were turned over in haste and owners aren't required to keep them anyway." Nice backpedal
4) "Mr. Shipley ... stepped up his firearms sales in 2005 to pay for his wife's medical treatment and expenses when the couple adopted their daughter in September 2004 and their son in August 2005." Combined with: "producing emails and Internet listings that showed that Mr. Shipley used his law enforcement connections to bargain for lower prices on guns, then quickly offered them for sale at a profit." Sounds like he is making a business out of selling, don't you need an FFL01 for that? Or especially being an FBI agent, wouldn't you know you were at least in the gray area and get one anyway just to be safe and cover your ass?
5) "In one instance records showed the buyer gave Mr. Shipley a check before Mr. Shipley ever bought the gun." Even Scooby-Doo is saying "Rut-roe" now.
6) "He bought the rifle in August 2007—for personal use, he said—paying $8,500 to a Missouri dealer over the Internet, and he sold it days later for $12,000 to an El Paso sheriff's deputy, to whom he had sold other firearms." 50% profit in a couple days...nothing possibly shady there.

So unless someone shows me a big setup, I am going to say the whole thing goes something like this:
Shipley is not too bright and has been pocketing cash on the side occasionally selling firearms for a profit. He associates with a scumbag named Luis Armando Rodriguez, a jailer with the El Paso County Sheriff's Office. He has sold several times to scumbag Rodriguez. He bought a .50 Cal rifle and sold it scumbag Rodriguez. Scumbag Rodriguez makes a habit of crossing the border and selling guns. This particular gun was sold to a Mexican National and ended up being confiscated in a Mexican cartel raid that cost the life of a Mexican authority. Examples are going to be made of those involved. Scumbag Rodriguez was smart enough to cop a plea and only ended up with 1 year. Shipley, not as smart, decided to fight it and lost.

And I like to judge people by the company they keep. Shipley associated with :
1) Scumbag Rodriguez, a fine upstanding member of our law enforcement community who sold guns over the border and was a member of the Centauros motorcycle club in Juárez.
2) Mark Richard Benedict, who was charged in March with helping a U.S. soldier steal and sell night-vision goggles from American forces in Iraq. Benedict pleaded guilty to smuggling large amounts of cash from the goggle sales in and out of the U.S.

I will not be losing any sleep over this one.

Sig, I hope you re-consider your request of aid unless you get a mountain of contrary evidence.

 

[zembonez]

Re: Please help support this cause, ATF lies their way into convicting another innoce

Sorry Sig Fiend, but I think you got caught up in the emotion of the "evil ATF smacks down another one" here.

The more I go read about this - the more I am convinced this guy was running a business and knew what he was doing was outside of the law. Once caught he's backpedaling and trying to find somebody else to blame (typical modern day American behavior). Now we are supposed to believe he was somehow innocent of all of these charges even though he was a well trained and knowledgeable person in this field. In my opinion, he s just trying to play innocent and get as many tinfoil hat wearing government haters to donate to the cause as possible.

Poor guy.

Frankly you should be disgusted with this idiot. His actions make legitimate gun enthusiasts look like bad guys.

Yeah - I know the government is out to get us.

 

[TheDan]

Re: Please help support this cause, ATF lies their way into convicting another innoce

Is this the same one that received a check for 12k for a rifle he was buying for 8k and didn't have in his possession yet?

John’s attorneys computed a purchase and sale summary based upon the information provided by the government for 2003 to 2008. Here is the yearly breakdown:
Year Purchases Sales Gain/Loss FBI Salary
2003 120- $ 7,455.00+ $115,000
2004 61- $ 4,505.00+ $115,000
2005 1618+ $ 2,224.40+ $115,000
2006 1815- $ 287.27+ $115,000
2007 2324+ $ 6,434.00+ $115,000
2008 68+ $ 8,690.89+ $115,000
Totals81 Purchases66 Sales+ $4,937.02+ $690,000

Do the math. $4,937.02 divided by 6 years = $ 822.84 per year. Do you believe his livelihood was the $4,937.02 he made in six years or the $690,000 he made from his FBI salary? Remember that in order to be a dealer as defined by the ATF, you must buy and sell firearms with the principle objective of livelihood and profit. It is not merely that you made a profit.

Based on the above, I do not think he was acting like a dealer... It still sounds like he's guilty of a straw purchase, but that's not the same thing as dealing without a license. It's worse in my opinion, but he should at least be charged for the right thing.

 

[SIG_Fiend]

Re: Please help support this cause, ATF lies their way into convicting another innoce

Yeah, now I agree. I apologize, jumped the gun on this one. All I know for sure is I have a lot of distrust for the ATF.

 

[Texan2]

Re: Please help support this cause, ATF lies their way into convicting another innoce

No problem Travis....they deserve the scrutiny. I just think this guy actually did screw the pooch.

 

[SIG_Fiend]

Re: Please help support this cause, ATF lies their way into convicting another innoce

My emotions have been getting the best of me lately. Women.

 

[zembonez]

Re: Please help support this cause, ATF lies their way into convicting another innoce

Yeah, now I agree. I apologize, jumped the gun on this one. All I know for sure is I have a lot of distrust for the ATF.

Can't really argue with you there...

 

[RetArmySgt]

Re: Please help support this cause, ATF lies their way into convicting another innoce

I think it sucks too. There have been times that i have gotten really good deals on firearms i bought that have been worth 10-20x more than what i have paid. If I were to sell those firearms for what they are worth would that not be illegal by the ATF's standards?

 

[ChunkyMonkey]

Re: Please help support this cause, ATF lies their way into convicting another innoce

I think it sucks too. There have been times that i have gotten really good deals on firearms i bought that have been worth 10-20x more than what i have paid. If I were to sell those firearms for what they are worth would that not be illegal by the ATF's standards?

Agreed. Nothing wrong with taking a good deal. But, I'm sure they're going to question if he really knew the buyer was unable to purchase, especially since it appeared that the 50cal purchase appeared to be for the other guy from the very start.

 

[Bithabus]

Re: Please help support this cause, ATF lies their way into convicting another innoce

I think it sucks too. There have been times that i have gotten really good deals on firearms i bought that have been worth 10-20x more than what i have paid. If I were to sell those firearms for what they are worth would that not be illegal by the ATF's standards?

If you do it frequently, and you use a LEO discount on items that you directly resell, and you buy guns that you already have agreed to resell, then yes.