BTW, several options on your poll are incorrect. A 30.05 notice does not make it illegal to enter while armed if you're carrying your LTC. It only affects permitless carry.
His scenario states you have no LTC.
BTW, several options on your poll are incorrect. A 30.05 notice does not make it illegal to enter while armed if you're carrying your LTC. It only affects permitless carry.
For the sake of discussion there also needs to be an understanding there is a difference between trespassing and criminal trespassing, and the consequences can be very different as well.
Is criminal trespassing the same as trespassing?
Criminal trespass involves entering or remaining in a place knowing one is there without a license or privilege. Trespass involves simply entering onto land without the consent of the landowner.
Also if a person is issued a "Criminal Trespass" violation or citation, that means that person can't enter under any circumstances for any reason for at least a year, and it can be renewed when that time expires.
How long does a criminal trespass last in Texas?
Criminal Trespass Warning Notices shall expire twelve months from the date of issuance unless in the last month prior to the expiration of the notice the property owner or their designate renews the warning by signing the renewal request at the police department. Each renewal is good for an additional twelve months
Whys is all this important? A lot of people are debating the legality of certain signage, and what exactly is legal as far as Texas state statutes. IMO, in a perfect world that may be true, but I'd argue even if the signage doesn't meet the standards of the statutes, if the property owner, business owner or their representatives want to pursue legal options and press charges, they can do so.It may not lead to an arrest, or even charges being filed, but it sure as hell could cause some legal headaches in defending and incur legal fees as well in securing a lawyer.
And just how serious is trespassing or criminal trespassing in Texas? Pretty serious and has some serious consequences. And since this pertains to guns and carrying under the new Constitutional Carry law that just went into effect his week, lets look at the possible consequences for the sake of discussion.
Consequences of a Trespassing Charge in Texas
Depending on where you were, you could get charged with either a Class A, B, or C misdemeanor. Here are the different distinctions of each crime:
The majority of trespassing cases in Texas result in Class B misdemeanor charges. If you were trespassing while also carrying a weapon, then your charges will immediately get upgraded to a Class A misdemeanor. You could also face additional charges due to the weapon, too.
- Class A: In a habitation, shelter, superfund, or critical infrastructure facility, while carrying a weapon, or multiple trespass charges on the property of a higher institution of learning
- Class B: Most other trespass crimes
- Class C: Within 100 feet of a agricultural boundary or freshwater area
If you get charged with a Class B misdemeanor, then you could get sentenced to up to six months in jail. On top of that, you could be subject to fines up to $2,000. If your crime gets elevated to a Class A misdemeanor, then you could face up to a year in jail. You could also get hit with fines up to $4,000.
So my understanding, and I may be incorrect, the carrying of firearm, even though legal can, or could elevate the charge from trespassing to criminal trespassing. If that is the case and a person is convicted of such charges, then because of the sentence that can be imposed, under federal law, a person could very well become a prohibited person and lose their gun rights.
Question 21c on the Form 4473:
c. Have you ever been convicted in any court, including a military court, of a felony, or any other crime for which the judge could have imprisoned you for more than one year, even if you received a shorter sentence including probation?
I like many others am just trying to come to some understanding of the new law, and how it applies as far as signage. I may be incorrect in some of my understandings of the current laws and the previous laws and how things have changed.
A lot of uncharted territory here.
Sec. 30.05. CRIMINAL TRESPASS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person enters or remains on or in property of another, including residential land, agricultural land, a recreational vehicle park, a building, or an aircraft or other vehicle, without effective consent and the person:
(1) had notice that the entry was forbidden; or
(2) received notice to depart but failed to do so.
So what? Axxe went to the trouble to write up a lot of concerns about trespass being applied to LTC and permitless carry and I wrote a soliloquy on why I'm not concerned. Isn't that what TGT is for? Or is it for big chested bikini babes pics?
I'm not disputing the validity of what you are stating, just that the more I read, the more confusing it becomes.I'm not sure where the above came from, maybe a prepaid legal service or some Texas defense attorney's advertisement. Chapter 30 of the Texas Penal Code contains all the crimes related to Burglary and Trespass. Burglary is not Trespass, it's a separate crime, so there are three relevant sections for trespass, Section 30.05, 30.06, and 30.07. Other than the title of the section 30.05, nothing in the Code makes a distinction between "criminal trespass" or "trespass". Each section defines an offense and the elements of that offense, which must be proven by the prosecution beyond a reasonable doubt (to a jury if you choose).
Carrying a gun WHILE trespassing, can raise the offense to a class A misdemeanor.
But carrying a gun in itself is not trespassing. The offense of trespassing is clearly defined in each section. Let's start with 30.05:
It then goes on to define notice...signs saying no trespassing, purple paint marks, fencing obviously designed to keep people out, etc. HB 1927 adds a specific format for a sign to notify people that they may not enter the property while carrying a firearm. Nowhere does it say that a cartoon frowny face and a silhouette of a squirt gun means "entry to this property is prohibited.
30.06 and 30.07 create a specific offense for carrying a handgun on property of another UNDER THE AUTHORITY OF (LTC) when they have indicated through very specific signage or oral notification, that you may not.
30.05 has exceptions, defenses to prosecution, and non-applicability depending on numerous circumstances (being a cop, LTC, utility worker, firefighter, emergencies, easements, etc.)
It's not really hard to understand. If a location normally open to the public wants to prohibit your entry, they can tell you not to come in, they can post a very specific sign for LTC or they can tell you to leave after you've already come in. In all sections of TXPC Chapter 30, if the reason for you being excluded or "trespassed" is that you are carrying a firearm, the offense is at most a Class C misdemeanor $200, no jail, ticket, UNLESS you are specifically told orally, after entering, to leave and fail to do so.
I don't know where the rest of the urban lore above comes from...perhaps trial cases for 30.05, but so far as has been reported by DPS no LTC has ever been convicted under 30.05/6/7.
The way I try to make sense of it is: Read the statute and try to see what I could be convicted of for doing what I'm doing. I also measure the risk of anyone actually discovering what I'm doing and making an issue of it. Once 30.06/7 were reduced to Class C tickets, I stopped caring as much. If I'm pretty sure what I'm doing is not illegal and the penalty isn't that high if I were (wrongly) convicted, then I just don't give it much thought. Except in the theoretical discussion format of TGT.I'm not disputing the validity of what you are stating, just that the more I read, the more confusing it becomes.
Most of that comes from law firms I was reading from on the statutes as they applied to Texas. Just trying to gain some simplified understanding of what the laws mean.
AAAAaaaaHaHahaha!Y was too close to T on his keyboard.
Just like e was too close to d on yours.
Sorry, couldn't resist....
My main point is, if I'm confused, I'm sure others are as well. I'm not by any stretch a legal scholar, but not a complete dumbass either!The way I try to make sense of it is: Read the statute and try to see what I could be convicted of for doing what I'm doing. I also measure the risk of anyone actually discovering what I'm doing and making an issue of it. Once 30.06/7 were reduced to Class C tickets, I stopped caring as much. If I'm pretty sure what I'm doing is not illegal and the penalty isn't that high if I were (wrongly) convicted, then I just don't give it much thought. Except in the theoretical discussion format of TGT.
... a soliloquy on why I'm not concerned. Isn't that what TGT is for? Or is it for big chested bikini babes pics?
The concern for anti-gun "hit pieces" has been repeated enough times it makes me think that has happened before. Has it?I don't know what the problem some people have with this thread.
It seems like a valid question and possibly some of you sound a little tin-foil-hat paranoid jumping on the OP.
This forum? That I have no idea of, but I wouldn't be surprised if it had. Many times in the past on other gun forums it has happened. Law-abiding gun owners get wary or new people coming in and asking very similar questions.The concern for anti-gun "hit pieces" has been repeated enough times it makes me think that has happened before. Has it?
I am confused about what such an article would say. Headline: "Recent poll indicates half of gun owners would rather go somewhere their guns are welcome"?
This forum? That I have no idea of, but I wouldn't be surprised if it had. Many times in the past on other gun forums it has happened. Law-abiding gun owners get wary or new people coming in and asking very similar questions.The concern for anti-gun "hit pieces" has been repeated enough times it makes me think that has happened before. Has it?
I am confused about what such an article would say. Headline: "Recent poll indicates half of gun owners would rather go somewhere their guns are welcome"?
For the sake of discussion there also needs to be an understanding there is a difference between trespassing and criminal trespassing, and the consequences can be very different as well.
...
A lot of uncharted territory here.
The way I try to make sense of it is: Read the statute and try to see what I could be convicted of for doing what I'm doing. I also measure the risk of anyone actually discovering what I'm doing and making an issue of it. Once 30.06/7 were reduced to Class C tickets, I stopped caring as much. If I'm pretty sure what I'm doing is not illegal and the penalty isn't that high if I were (wrongly) convicted, then I just don't give it much thought. Except in the theoretical discussion format of TGT.
That's an important point and glad you caught that, because it slipped past me.I noted that Axxe post the penalties for Class A, B, and C Misdemeanors. Also the Federal Statute regarding losing your gun rights. A little closer shows the Feds saying "can be sentenced to over a year". The Penalty for Class A is "up to a year" Big difference there. Now if you could be sentenced to a year AND a day you would be in trouble.
A fine line but it is well defined.
I share your concern. Any time there is confusion or lack of clarity in the law, it will not be used to benefit you or me.
Yes it drops to C misdemeanor if the "sole basis on which entry on the property or land or in the building was forbidden is that entry with a firearm or other weapon was forbidden," which, if it ends up in court, I believe will be the defendant's responsibility to prove. Is it possible that's as easy to contradict as saying there were two bases on which entry was forbidden, one of which wasn't firearm-related?
This is important because like Axxe said, it reverts to a class A misdemeanor with serious consequences, if that condition can't be proven in court.
But the distinction between trespass and criminal trespass is where we get more wiggle room. Because the offense only exists if the trespasser had notice that entry was forbidden and entered anyway, or received notice and failed to depart. That is an element the prosecution would have to prove. And that is my understanding of why a "criminal trespass notice" exists. I am familiar with them because my wife works at a hotel and has had to issue such a notice before as the manager on duty. Without a written notice signed by the trespasser, any claim that they were "given notice" is he said/she said. But the notice is now on file with the police and would be admissible as evidence they had received notice. Without that notice, the police can't arrest you unless they witness the offense. But with the notice on file, they can arrest the person if they return, even if they leave again and the police catch up to them later.
So hence the distinction between trespassing per the dictionary definition vs criminal trespassing which is an offense defined by Chapter 30. If you tell someone "leave and don't come back" they would be trespassing if they did come back. But it's not enforceable unless you have something they could be prosecuted with--the criminal trespass notice.
I appreciate the practical aspect of this. Except for my concern about it reverting to a Class A misdemeanor on a technicality, I agree with you. Not that I've ever personally driven above the posted speed limit, but I have heard that speeding tickets can cost well over $200. Even if you do the state deferred adjudication it costs close to $200. So I'm not that worried about it.
I also appreciate the comments from a couple of folks that no one has ever been convicted under 30.06/07. That puts some perspective on the applicability of this discussion to real life.