Let us discuss range safety when shooting with a group.

[breakingcontact]

Safety isn't discussed enough. We should all know the basic (3 or 4 or whatever) rules of gun safety and may tell others these rules but this discussion is bigger than that.

What are some of the things you do, to ensure safety while shooting with a group at the range?
Bonus points for discussing how you handle new shooters as I have seen a few threads lately on taking new folks shooting, which is awesome.

Some basics beyond but perhaps part of the basics that I like to see while shooting in groups is:

Eyes and ears
Good communication
Everyone knowing they can call a ceasefire
A controlled firing line, not staggered
Guns in holsters or on a table with actions open
No handling of guns while others are down range

I could keep going but these are the ones on the top of my head

I know that most of us "know" the basic gun safety rules, but to me, without modeling them in context, they are not enough.

For instance, if you tell a new shooter, "don't sweep anyone with your muzzle", you are using gun jargon that they may not understand, versus explaining it and SHOWING what safe handling looks like.

What do you have?

 

[SIG_Fiend]

One thing I find that tends to help considerably is spending a few brief minutes answering a number of those little unanswered questions that most of the typical rules and typical safety briefs don't always cover. For example, with inexperienced or new shooters, there are a lot of questions and a lot of people wonder how and when it is okay to do certain things. I'm talking about a lot of little things, like how do I pick up the gun off of the shooting bench? How do I put it down? When do I load or unload the gun? What do I do if I have a malfunction or other problem? What do I do if someone else calls a cease fire? I like to give people a basic structure to work from, that will help them avoid a lot of that, and answer a lot of those unanswered questions. For example, picking a gun up and putting it down. My recommendation is, the gun should be placed on the shooting bench in the orientation in which you would grab it to establish a firing grip. In layman's terms, the grip should be pointing to the direction of your gun hand. For example, for a right-handed shooter, the gun should be laying on the left side. If we're talking about pistols, this means they can start off picking the gun up while establishing a solid and safe grip. Same will work for a lot of long guns. So you pick up the gun, paying attention to your trigger finger index. The mag should be placed with the baseplate facing your support hand, allowing you to easily and simultaneously pick up the gun and mag in a safe manner. Putting it down? Clear the gun in the proper manner (which would be explained), and set it back down the EXACT same way, so that it's easy to pick back up the next time.

Little stuff like that can make a big difference, in my experience. It's "between the lines" that people either decide to ask questions, or more likely, they just make it up and figure it out as they go along. They may not always figure it out in the most optimal or safest way, so better to address those little things up front.

I also recommend the same basic thing for instructing newer shooters on how to case and uncase the gun. It's too easy for those cases to end up turned sideways, facing up range, etc.

Same thing with loading and unloading procedure, really stressing that "you must perform these steps every single time you pick up or put down a gun". Give them a basic procedure, an explanation of how it will eliminate every possible safety issue as long as they follow every single step, and they'll often pick up the habit.

Move yourself around the gun, not the gun around you. At least on the square range. This is simple and takes a second to explain, and a second to demo so they understand what you mean. I'll usually use a blue gun (after explaining what a blue gun is, so they feel safe), still pointed downrange, maybe moving just a bit in either direction, changing body position while still keeping the gun arm pretty much pinned down range. Once they see it, it just makes sense.

Also, addressing what to do when a buddy wants to shoot. Pretty much, perform your safe unloading procedure, set the gun down in the manner they've been taught, and their buddy will need to pick the gun up properly and load it themselves. They shouldn't be passing guns to each other if it can be avoided, but instead just clearing it and placing it on the bench, then switching spots. Keep in mind, I'm talking purely about newbies.

Also, don't bend down while there are people shooting above you. If someone is shooting next to you, and you bend down to pick up a mag or dropped piece of unspent brass, it's very easy for the shooter next to you to go to a low ready, fumble around with their gun in a muzzle down position, and to potentially muzzle sweep you. So for newer shooters, it would probably be easier to just briefly explain this, and tell them to wait for further instructions by an RO or a cease fire before crouching down to do anything.

That's all I can think of for now. Random, late night, memory dump.

 

[Professor]

Kathy Jackson - former editor of Concealed Carry Magazine - has a great article on taking a new shooter to the range. Her website is full of excellent information. Here is the link to that particular article.

Taking a New Shooter to the Range | Cornered Cat

 

[Younggun]

Great post sig fiend.

 

[breakingcontact]

Thanks Sig. Thats what I was trying to get at regarding "the 4 rules". Endless memorization and recitation does not equal safety.

Regarding "the little things" that is spot on. Ive noticed in most extreme situations in life, things that are potentially deadly and happen quickly it usually isn't just one big thing that went wrong, it is a culmination of small things.

 

[BRD@66]

Good talk. Thanks.

 

[Army 1911]

A controlled firing line with all shooters shooting from the same distance

Shooting from the same firing line is important to safety but I don't see shooting the same distance as a safety factor per se.

 

[breakingcontact]

Shooting from the same firing line is important to safety but I don't see shooting the same distance as a safety factor per se.

Right. If you have one firing line and different ranges 50 M 100 M or whatever that is certainly fine.

Edited my post for clarity. By "from the same distance" I am refering to the firing line being a line and not having shooters staggered a bit in front and a bit behind.

 

[V-Tach]

Tell them to forget anything they've seen in a movie.


Good thread......

 

[TAZ]

Great post Sig.

One of the things I always do with new shooters, either at the range or while going there is make sure that understand the safety rules as best as possible. Same goes for the range rules and common terminology used. Doing this off range has for me made it easier to keep people focused. When they get to the range they are all excited like kids in a candy store and tend to get distracted. I also rarely let a newbie shoot by themselves. I only take maybe 1 or two shooters with me and let them take turns while I watch. This is NOT my range/training session; its theirs. I may show them something on grip or stance, but one person goes bang at one time with me standing behind their dominant shoulder to insure I can control their body and if need be the muzzle should they have a brain fart. Never had to do the muzzle thing yet. Usually a gentle grasp of the shoulders to keep them facing down range is enough to remind them they were about to turn on their friends.

 

[benenglish]

By "from the same distance" I am refering to the firing line being a line and not having shooters staggered a bit in front and a bit behind.

I find it interesting how times and perceptions change.

Decades ago, if your smallbore rifle target became partially detached from the backer at Camp Perry, they didn't shut down the whole line for you to fix it. The shooters on either side of you were told to cease fire. You then walked downrange and fixed the situation, all while bullets were flying by you, maybe 8 feet away on either side. AFAIK, no one was ever hurt by this practice.

And about those 3 rules (NRA) or 4 rules (everybody else) of safety that are engraved in granite, never to be challenged? Well, the "finger off the trigger till the sights are on the target" rule is, in some contexts, incredibly stupid. No NRA Conventional Pistol shooter or ISSF competitor pays any attention to it and they'd laugh at anyone who actually tried to enforce such a thing. At the last RSO class I attended for one of the clubs I belong to, the action-style shooters were trying to move toward enforcing their form of trigger discipline on the Conventional Pistol shooters and, frankly, it made for a rather heated discussion.

The OP mentioned "Guns in holsters or..." as one of his "off-the-top-of-my-head" obvious examples of a safety rule. Yet I know a club that will throw you off the range and pull your membership if you walk around with a handgun in a holster more than once.

I said all that to say this - When discussing "range safety when shooting with a group" I think we must define which group we're shooting with. If we don't, there could be 5 different conversations going on in the thread all at the same time, all based on different assumptions, all with conflicting assertions, and all being both right and wrong simultaneously, depending on context.

So, what group are we shooting with?

 

[breakingcontact]

Good points Ben.

Regarding the holster, that is a safer place for a gun versus someone walking around with it in their hands.

When I discuss specifics it is specific to the range I go to, where you are free to wear your holstered gun and shoot from the holster.

Certainly other ranges may have other rules, productive or otherwise.

Regarding groups it is valid to discuss differences in how you would handle a small group vs a larger one and groups of differing or mixed abilities.

Glad to see folks participating in this thread. My first real experiences shooting regularly were in the military which is high control based on systems and policies but low on actual safety based on reason and knowledge. Such as when I pointed out to a range safety that his brass clearing rod was too short to actually determine if the chamber was clear...and I wasnt even a "gun guy" then!

I am interested in training towards proficiency and I'd like to start inviting more people, especially those new to shooting to go to the range with me.

I think I certainly have a good grasp on safe gun handling but want to discuss and learn more about the best practices while shooting with or training a group.

 

[SIG_Fiend]

Excellent points, Ben. It definitely matters what group of people we're talking about, as well as the skill level and experience of people we're talking about.

For future reference, and because I'm bad about stating this up front, most of my recommendations are usually coming from the standpoint of newer shooters and unsafe shooters. That's where a majority of my experience has been, in managing and training inexperienced shooters, so I tend to be biased towards that.

That being said, I'll say this much. To date, through this forum and range events we've held, range events with other forums I've been to, training classes I've been in, and private training days I've participated in, after shooting with literally hundreds of people....there are still only about 3-5 people that I trust unequivocally when it comes to firearm safety and safe firearm handling. There is even a special mission unit guy I've trained with before, with a wealth of experience, that I don't include in that list of 3-5 people... I think that says a lot.

Ultimately, the range will dictate some of what is acceptable behavior for their range. Some don't allowed holstered guns, some do. That's fine either way, but the main thing is establishing a consistent method of absolutely maintaining a safe firing line. If holsters are allowed, guns stay in holsters, and everyone is instructed not to mess around with their holstered gun until they're on the firing line firing; that's one way to do it. Another might be cleared and sitting on a shooting bench (pointed downrange) until that shooter's turn is up. There are plenty of other methods. Often, depending on the skill level of the shooters, having guns in hand when not shooting, and when behind other shooters, is where things can potentially get questionable.


Managing large groups:

With large groups of people, one good way to manage it safely is split the group into "relays". One shoots while the other watches. Usually I'd try to maintain at most a 5:1 shooter to instructor/RSO ratio, to keep things safe. It can actually make for valuable training experience for those watching, if you explain a few things to them, and have them watch the shooter that's in front of them. Give them a few things to try and identify, like paying attention to the muzzle and looking for the front sight to jump down right before the shot, or what have you. Often, a change of perspective like that can lead to some light bulb moments for people.


When you walk, when you talk:

Another random one. If shooters are using holsters, if they are doing certain things like picking up a spent mag from the ground, they should re-holster first. For experienced shooters, big boy rules, and this can often be done safely with a gun in hand. For inexperienced ones, I once heard it well summed up as "If you walk, if you talk, re-holster." Obviously doesn't apply to everyone, everywhere, all of the time, but inexperienced ones and shooting on a static firing line, it's useful.


Casing and uncasing guns:

Also, more areas where people kind of do their own thing, because there's not usually specific discussion with specific instructions given. How should people bring their gun(s) to the shooting bench or firing line, and how should they pack them up when they leave? I like to tell people, case or uncase the gun, only up on the firing line, only pointed downrange, and only on a hot range. On a cold range, you can end up with people handling potentially loaded guns, behind people that might be downrange changing targets. Or vice versa, they might have just shown up to the range, range is cold, people are downrange, and they start uncasing their guns. Just have them set their stuff down and wait until the range is hot.


Storage behind the line:

Storing guns behind the firing line. This is a big one, and one I've seen a lot of problems with at public ranges, as well as even some of our range events. It's too easy for safety to become an issue when we're talking about potentially a very few degrees of movement and few pounds of pressure between someone getting shot. Where possible, I like to tell people that all guns should be up on the firing line. This isn't always possible, especially if people brought a LOT of guns with them. Where possible, if that's the case, some sort of rack that can store long guns vertically would be preferable, with shooters paying particular attention to keep their guns oriented vertically when moving them to the firing line. Even with this, it's something that should be monitored by RSO's, as it only takes a tenth of a second to go wrong. What becomes particularly problematic is handguns stored behind the firing line. For handguns, I'd say they should remain cased if being stored behind the firing line. Also, another potential issue is people loading their guns behind the firing line. At one range I go to, unfortunately there is a large bench behind one of the firing lines, which is a prime spot for people to stack a bunch of their guns, gun cases, and to load their mags. Inevitably, it usually results in someone at some time or another handling their gun, to at least get the mag out and load it. Again, playing with fire. May not be an issue 99% of the time, but why would we choose to play with fire when we can simply disallow and restrict certain things by creating a specific procedure?


Respecting the range:

One thing definitely not discussed too often is things that can destroy parts of the range, or pose a risk to the range's future business. People bring their own targets, people get caught up in having fun with friends, people get focused on certain things while becoming oblivious to other things, and some people are just downright rude and have no respect for other people's property. I think it's helpful to clarify a few things up front with a group of shooters, based on whatever restrictions exist with the range, the construction of the range, as well as the range surroundings. Some of the issues I'm referring to are people failing to control recoil, shooting faster than their current capabilities, launching rounds over the berm. Also, people being unaware of their capabilities as well as the characteristics of their guns, and skipping rounds off the ground and over the berm. Inevitably this usually happens when less experienced shooters shoot pistols at distance. It can also happen when shooters are shooting at very low-placed targets. Depending on how targets are setup on the range, this highlights the important of one of the 4 safety rules, in terms of "knowing your target and what's beyond it". So I think this is a good expansion to discuss when reviewing the safety rules, that only has to take a few seconds and use a few simple examples for people to hopefully "get it".

Additionally, people will often bring their own targets. Sometimes they bring tannerite. That's something that should be addressed specifically, whether it is or is not allowed. Also, destruction of range property. It doesn't even occur to a lot of inexperienced shooters, that they might be shooting and destroying range equipment that actually costs money. Shot placement, being aware of bullet trajectory (a simple layman's understanding is sufficient), being aware of their own skills and how mistakes could cause them to do certain things, these are all important subjects to address. On an indoor range, for example, people often just don't even consider the fact that due to bullet trajectory, if they are a bit out of control, they could actually be shooting the baffles on the ceiling, shooting and destroying an expensive target hangar/trolley, etc.

 

[breakingcontact]

+1 for consistency

 

[breakingcontact]

How about "safe tables"?

 

[robertc1024]

If you want a safety training - watch Ben E. carting guns around. I watched at the last Hicksville. He made me ashamed.

 

[benenglish]

If you want a safety training - watch Ben E. carting guns around. I watched at the last Hicksville. He made me ashamed.

I know about the stuff I know but make no mistake, out of my element I'm hardly confident. Drop me into a 3-gun match and I'd need someone to lead me by the hand lest I do something stupid or stunningly impolite.

 

[TheDan]

skipping rounds off the ground and over the berm

This reminds me... shooting over water is a bad idea. A bullet will bounce off water nearly like a laser off a mirror.

 

[jrbfishn]

If you want a safety training - watch Ben E. carting guns around. I watched at the last Hicksville. He made me ashamed.

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