House Passes Gun-Control Bill Expanding Background Checks on Firearm Sales

[oldag]

I don't disagree. I'm just arguing we need to do better. We need to work smarter.

But drawing a line in the sand isn't the way to work smarter. It's an invitation to a winner-take-all brawl. It's an invitation to all-out war where the loser loses everything.

I honestly believe there's a chance we could lose everything. Because I believe that, I accept the need to not draw un-cross-able lines but, instead, to work the system to try to make incremental progress.

We have successfully made incremental progress, a great deal of it, at the state level and in the courts over the last 30 years. Look at how much more common the ability to legally carry a firearm has become over that time frame in so many states. Look at the Heller decision. Why can't we bring that mindset to the arena of federal legislation?

Incrementalism isn't a dirty word. It's just a strategy. It's a strategy that has been used effectively against us for a long time at the federal level. I'd just like to see us turn that around and start winning at that level. I think it's possible as long as we don't fall into a self-defeating, absolutist mindset.

My mistake. I thought this conversation was around the Federal level.

And at the Federal level we aren't looking at gaining things incrementally, we are looking at stopping anti-2A legislation. And there we cannot give anything more.

 

[jrbfishn]

Actually, we now have five solid Constitutionalists on SCOTUS, we don't have to have Roberts any more.

You may want to look at those again.....

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[Army 1911]

Actually, we now have five solid Constitutionalists on SCOTUS, we don't have to have Roberts any more.

I'm not sure we have 5 solid Constitutionalists. Gorsuch seems more like a swing vote.

 

[bbbass]

Actually, we now have five solid Constitutionalists on SCOTUS, we don't have to have Roberts any more.

Never trust a fart.

I've seen some decisions from justices that surprised me. Never can figure which eggheaded lawyerly contradictory garbage they are going to come up with. The problem starts when they "interpret" instead of read the plain language in the context it was written.

More is better.

 

[Army 1911]

We need to draw a line in the sand now. If we don't do it soon we won't be able to.

Hard to draw a line when only one grain of sand is left.

 

[bbbass]

With respect to the current status of our country, more than just 2A issues, where has the compromising with liberals gotten us?

All that has happened is we have given ground every single time, with not one thing in return.

It is past time to draw the line in the sand.

The great Rush Limbaugh, and Ronaldus Magnus, said that enemies must be defeated. After paying attention to politics for many years, I agree. Our side, on the federal level, has been full of crappy negotiators all those years. Yet when we stand strong, we have won. IMO, what we need to do is borrow the tactics of the antis and keep hammering away with new legislative proposals. The more outrageous the better... that way, we are in a better negotiating position for THEM to be willing to accept something less than what WE want.

That said, remember that politics follows culture. And this is a truism. Our problem is that we have lost the centers that influence culture. The result is that gun owners are seen as nut balls, misfits, redneck assholes, evil, bad boys that don't care about others, etc. We are still living within our own culture of being able to defend ourselves and also have a pleasant hobby, as tho it were 50yrs ago. But young people in many states hate guns and gun owners. I'm hoping that the recent trend of panic buying defensive firearms brings some sense to them. Before we can reverse legislation, we need to re-establish traditional culture.

 

[benenglish]

What about incorporating a "Sunset provision" in these types of government grabs for power?

I have always believed that every law should have a sunset provision. Almost all laws outlive their original, intended purpose and should either be re-debated and voted on or allowed to quietly disappear.

 

[benenglish]

IMO, what we need to do is borrow the tactics of the antis and keep hammering away with new legislative proposals. The more outrageous the better... that way, we are in a better negotiating position for THEM to be willing to accept something less than what WE want.

Yes! Exactly my attitude; I agree wholeheartedly.

Our problem is that we have lost the centers that influence culture. The result is that gun owners are seen as nut balls, misfits, redneck assholes, evil, bad boys that don't care about others, etc. ... I'm hoping that the recent trend of panic buying defensive firearms brings some sense to them. Before we can reverse legislation, we need to re-establish traditional culture.

There's also another hope. Immigration.

Most Latinos coming to this country are basically conservative. They believe in remarkably solid family values. Unfortunately, most of them come from places where guns are only used for evil so, based on their experience, they toe the anti-gun line for the Democrats.

I'm not qualified to do it but someone, a native Spanish speaker, needs to head up an outreach effort to newer Americans with the emphasis on showing them that this, firearms ownership, is the greatest symbol of the freedom they were seeking when they came here. It's something you can do in America but for which the repressive government you left behind would have jailed or executed you. At every annual Gun Rights Policy meeting, someone is always standing up and saying "Learn Spanish and recruit from those family-centered Mexican-Americans. They could be a huge win for the 2A!"

Yet nothing ever seems to happen on that front.

If anybody knows of an organization working that angle, link me. I want to send them money.

 

[oldag]

The great Rush Limbaugh, and Ronaldus Magnus, said that enemies must be defeated. After paying attention to politics for many years, I agree. Our side, on the federal level, has been full of crappy negotiators all those years. Yet when we stand strong, we have won. IMO, what we need to do is borrow the tactics of the antis and keep hammering away with new legislative proposals. The more outrageous the better... that way, we are in a better negotiating position for THEM to be willing to accept something less than what WE want.

That said, remember that politics follows culture. And this is a truism. Our problem is that we have lost the centers that influence culture. The result is that gun owners are seen as nut balls, misfits, redneck assholes, evil, bad boys that don't care about others, etc. We are still living within our own culture of being able to defend ourselves and also have a pleasant hobby, as tho it were 50yrs ago. But young people in many states hate guns and gun owners. I'm hoping that the recent trend of panic buying defensive firearms brings some sense to them. Before we can reverse legislation, we need to re-establish traditional culture.

Our country is largely divided into two camps. Conservatives who still hold the Judae-Christian values upon which this country was founded, and liberals who reject those values. I do not think many exist in the middle ground. A country cannot remain united without a foundation of shared values.

 

[cycleguy2300]

Rapid response? How rapid do you think it would be?
Our Armed forces are trained to fight on foreign soil, not ours.
Our Army doesn't do anything quick. The top brass ( aka generals ) have to have intel, and briefings before making any decisions. Then they have to consult the President, and unfortunately, the current "President", in which if his brains were dynamite, doesn't have enough to blow his nose, would have to have his advisors giving him input.
But yes, 30 days + is a conservative estimate.
Don't bet on their being a "Rapid" response, it just wouldn't be there.
Logistically, it takes about 4 - 5 days to load a brigade of tanks onto a train to get them there to make sure the enemy wouldn't go any further.
Plus, does anyone know what the acceptable amount of civilian loss is due to collateral damage?
The FBI, and Army estimates about 10%. So, you can guarantee that there will be a minimum of 10% civilian casualties when they go in to re-patriate the people in such an invasion zone.


Hawk

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Trained to fight is trained to fight. The principles of combat are the principles of combat whether state side or BFE.

There are plenty of troops and material it Texas, Georgia, NC etc that could be moved within hours. there is plenty of air power to engage any enemy aircraft and make direct assaults against ground forces. Additionally cruise missiles could be used to immediately target landing zones.

This is even assuming we were caught with our head up our butts thinking a massive foreign fleet was just coming close to shore to wave and see the bikinis on the beach.

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[benenglish]

I thought this conversation was around the Federal level.

It is. I'm simply pointing out success in other venues that I believe we should try to reproduce at the federal level.

at the Federal level we aren't looking at gaining things incrementally, we are looking at stopping anti-2A legislation. And there we cannot give anything more.

Well, I maintain we should be looking at gaining things incrementally at every level. But you're also completely correct that stopping the onslaught of anti-2A legislation is the problem of this moment and we can't give anything right now. That's the case right now.

But we should also keep an eye to the future and plan ahead.

Our country is largely divided into two camps. Conservatives who still hold the Judae-Christian values upon which this country was founded, and liberals who reject those values. I do not think many exist in the middle ground. A country cannot remain united without a foundation of shared values.

That's 100% truth and, looking at the state of the union at this moment, 100% depressing.

I'm not sure how to most efficiently go about changing the problem, bridging the divide, but I hold on to hope that it's possible. If it's not, I feel really bad for all y'all's grandkids.

 

[bbbass]

That's 100% truth and, looking at the state of the union at this moment, 100% depressing.

I'm not sure how to most efficiently go about changing the problem, bridging the divide, but I hold on to hope that it's possible. If it's not, I feel really bad for all y'all's grandkids.

1. Raise a stink with alumni/sponsors/supporters/contributors of our universities. We need to encourage rich people that are conservative to stand up to others that are supporting the intellectuals that are ruining the American dream. Get rid of cancel culture... the younguns are running the only good profs out.

2. Recapture control of K-12 education system. That means moving people into Congress that will break the back of the teacher's unions and then change the curriculum. I'm 100% against any gov workers unionizing.

3. Promote alternative news/commentary. The word of those that stand up to progressives needs to reach a wider audience.

4. Stop supporting progressive tech with your clicks and Amazon orders.

5. Help people get back to church. Help put God back in schools.

6. Vote. Every time. And don't throw away your vote!!

7. Take a newbie shooting/hunting/fishing.

8. Keep supporting pro-gun groups. As many as you can afford. Write to them often and encourage them to fight harder and be more vocal.

9. Encourage spokespeople. Good ambassadors are hard to find. Let them know they are doing a good job and that you appreciate their work.

10. Write Congress often. Encourage others to do so also. (My state Senators are lost, Wyden/Merkley, and it's hopeless, but others have Senators that need encouragement. )

 

[TheDan]

1. Raise a stink with alumni/sponsors/supporters/contributors of our universities.

Public funding is the issue. Private universities are more well balanced.

2. Recapture control of K-12 education system.

There is no recapturing it. It was designed from the beginning to pump out acceptable members of the proletariat. There is no American exceptionalism in the K-12 system.

 

[TheDan]

where has the compromising with liberals gotten us?

Big part of the problem is the people who have been compromising on our behalf.

I'm willing to bet that if we expend a lot of effort and money we could get Ben in front of a small coalition of Republican senators and congressmen. He could perfectly explain his position, and demonstrate how they could present it to their constituents as a win.
...and they wouldn't get it. All they would hear is "The gun nuts want UBCs."

 

[HawkeyeSATX]

Trained to fight is trained to fight. The principles of combat are the principles of combat whether state side or BFE.

There are plenty of troops and material it Texas, Georgia, NC etc that could be moved within hours. there is plenty of air power to engage any enemy aircraft and make direct assaults against ground forces. Additionally cruise missiles could be used to immediately target landing zones.

This is even assuming we were caught with our head up our butts thinking a massive foreign fleet was just coming close to shore to wave and see the bikinis on the beach.

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Ok, I understand where you're coming from.

In WW2, it took over 2 months of logistics, and training to win back the Aleutian Islands.
That's while we were involved in Europe, and the Pacific.
I would hope and pray there is a "rapid" force response, but in all reality, it's not going to be a quick, easy operation to win back territory that was invaded.
May God help in times like those!


Hawk

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[General Zod]

There is no recapturing it. It was designed from the beginning to pump out acceptable members of the proletariat. There is no American exceptionalism in the K-12 system.

Sure there is. We have to suppose policies that will bring jobs and growth to such an extent that even the folks in the crappy, poor, inner-city neighborhoods start to see opportunities to improve their lives rather than exist on government handouts. That's why the dems are so keen on expanding the welfare state and consider it a victory when more and more families sign up for assistance - socialism requires a downtrodden peasant class in order to take hold, and they've been doing their best to create that peasant class since the 60s. It's why they vilify the Reagan years, and why they had to go to such extremes to tank the Trump economy and its record job growth for minorities.

 

[General Zod]

Ok, I understand where you're coming from.

In WW2, it took over 2 months of logistics, and training to win back the Aleutian Islands.

The Aleutian Islands weren't full of cranky gun owners willing and able to conduct guerrilla operations...nor did they have the largest Army base in the world like we do here in Texas. Or entire wings of fighters and bombers based nearbly and able to strike anywhere within an hour - even caught with our pants down, we can steel put iron on target anywhere on the US coastline with minimal delay. Heck, most of the military could conceivably make popcorn and relax while the Marines in Louisiana take care of things for a bit.

 

[oldag]

Public funding is the issue. Private universities are more well balanced.

There is no recapturing it. It was designed from the beginning to pump out acceptable members of the proletariat. There is no American exceptionalism in the K-12 system.

Most of the private universities are also off the deep left end.

 

[innominate]

I'm not sure how to most efficiently go about changing the problem, bridging the divide, but I hold on to hope that it's possible. If it's not, I feel really bad for all y'all's grandkids.

Social media is part of the problem that I don't see going away. Instead of uniting it breaks people up into many factions

 

[bbbass]

Public funding is the issue. Private universities are more well balanced.

No, what is being promulgated in the university/college classroom by "intellectuals" is the issue. I don't know or care how it is done, but society needs to rid itself of these jerks that have so much time on their hands that they dream up crap like "Critical Race Theory" or "You can't be racist if you don't have the power" to pound into the heads of young skulls full of mush.

There is no recapturing it. It was designed from the beginning to pump out acceptable members of the proletariat. There is no American exceptionalism in the K-12 system.

Please don't tell me that you honestly think that what is being taught in k-12 today is the same as what was taught historically.

If I were to accept your first assertion, I would have to say that it hasn't been true for quite awhile. Children are no longer being prepped to enter the working world (what's wrong with that? The non-worker bees can go to college, but society still needs workers/plumbers/electricians/AC techs/hairdressers, etc. What we don't need is so many coders and eggheads, or people with worthless degrees.). Instead, they are being armed with marxist ideas, and sent out to do battle to end capitalism, climate change, systemic racism, and whiteness.