Get your water heaters now. New regulations next month.

[Bozz10mm]

I'm going to buy two extra water heaters now, and store them next to the old washing machine, refrigerator, and paint cans in my driveway.

 

[AustinN4]

I'm going to buy two extra water heaters now, and store them next to the old washing machine, refrigerator, and paint cans in my driveway.

So you are that guy! Now I know where you live.

 

[Acera]

I've lived in homes built from 1873 to 2010, and not one of those would have a problem installing available 2015 NAECA compliant units. In fact, the older homes I've lived in are the ones with the best options! Would some available units not fit in some of those homes? Definitely - but that was the case BEFORE the new regulations too. Have you read the regs? Have you looked up dimensions of compliant units? Have you measured your available space? I'm guessing you haven't, because when I first got wind of the news that's the first thing I did - and I found it was a non-issue. Ironically my current home (built in 2010) has the narrowest passage yet (22.5" attic ladder) and I have two 40 gallon Bradford White Defender heaters. They're 20" diameter by 59-3/8" tall, pre-2015 NAECA rule water heaters. A quick search on Lowe's and Home Depot finds newer, more efficient units that are identical in diameter, and with heights both taller and shorter than the units I currently have. There may be some cases where there MIGHT be a fit issue, but I can't jump on the fear bandwagon on this one. A simple measuring tape is all one needs to know for sure.




I replaced the 40 gal unit in my previous home. It was fun lugging the new one up the stairs, and lugging the old one down. Wasn't too bad I suppose, but certainly not as easy were it to be in the garage or a basement with 36 inch wide stairs. On the plus side though, you get to make use of the "free" attic heat to cut down on gas/elec. costs.

People who rely on the internet for all their information sometimes do not get the big picture, it is a common occurrence with the younger generation. They read it, then think that they know it all. Seems like we have a prime example here. Those that actually do these things on a semi regular basis know the difference.

The opening is just one of the issues, if you had to have replaced more than one easy one in your parents house, you might understand that. It is also the springs and support braces for the ladder and other things that shrink the size of the usable opening that you have to push the damn thing though that is the issue. The last one I put in an attic, just barely fit. We have purchased an new one that is sitting in the garage of the same type and size, because we don't want to have to drop to a 40 gallon when this one goes out. Unless you get a tankless, the efficiency of the heater will not keep it from running out of hot water during heavy use. This is not a all things to all people type of issue, it will apply to some more than others.


It was just a warning.




Regarding the gas water heaters in the attic. Where else to you want to put it? (Electric and tankless slightly different stories)

People hated it when we used to build them into closets, they wanted that space for other things. Plus we had to make those closets so small, replacing one was a bitch, and like today the more energy efficient models of the same volume did not fit, plus you got to properly ventilate it.

Putting it in a detached garage is not feasible most times, too long a run, and you just about have to have a recirculating system to make it work (which are real nice). That involves more cost. Done that once, still working as far as I know.

Attached garages is a good choice in a lot of cases, and builders seem to do that regularly.

Basements in the gulf coast? LOL, I have done a few, but they are expensive per square foot. Not really an option for most people in this part of the country. Mainly built them inside the loop and Memorial area where land is a lot more expensive, and the buyers want as much house on the lot as they can get.

Interior utility rooms seemed like a good idea, until ventilation issues and the fact most people did not like the extra heat it generated and ran up their ac bill. The Energy Star folks hated it.

Exterior accessible, sealed mechanical closets have been tried, people liked some of that. But when you get efficient and put he HVAC system and the water heater in them, you take up a huge chunk out of the living space.

In Texas if you wanted to heat something up, where else is a better place than an attic? Since sales folks and buyers concentrate on price per square foot when advertising and comparing houses, builders have had to maximize the ratio in their favor to get sales. The plumbers run natural gas lines to the attic for the HVAC and that unit is up there. I know stupid trying to make cold air in the hottest part of the house (we can have an entirely new thread on energy efficiency measures and why that should be in conditioned space). So unused attic space has been accepted as the least problematic of the bad choices these days, and has been for a while.

Take into consideration that the majority of folks pay for someone else to take care of home mechanical issues so it does not concern them. This forum is probably skewed to the folks that do a lot of this themselves, but that is not real world. I know people who pay others to change light-bulbs!

Safety pans and alarms should help prevent major damage when they fail. You can extend the life of the heater by draining the sediment out of the bottom regularly, but few do.

Now if you go tankless or electric you open up other options. Electric will kill your light bill. Tankless can be great if you get a good gas one. I did just under 100 all electric Energy Star certified houses a few years back with tankless water heaters mounted on the wall in the utility rooms, the electric meter looked like a ceiling fan when the hot water was running, LOL. We had no option other than all electric and between inherent high costs of electric heat (compared to natural gas) and the water heaters the buyers got hosed on their bills. (Another area where internet minds will want to argue, they will read that electric heating is a lot more efficient that gas, but in the real world we all know it costs a lot more to operate.)

The issue with natural gas tankless is expense, but you can mount them in a lot of tighter places. I have mounted a few on exterior mounts on houses, they work great, lot of noise when running, got to have enhanced ventilation and exhaust when indoors, but on the whole pretty good. Their life cycle seems to be shorter though.



Ok, I am going to leave it here. You guys can go read and make your own decisions.

 

[TheDan]

I heard an ad on the radio today from some plumbing place telling you to "buy a new one now while we can still sell you one that will fit!", and then they joked about becoming black market water heater dealers. Good job trying to capitalize on the situation.

 

[coachrick]

I heard an ad on the radio today from some plumbing place telling you to "buy a new one now while we can still sell you one that will fit!", and then they joked about becoming black market water heater dealers. Good job trying to capitalize on the situation.

Yeah the local news kept teasing and then leading with the story that made it sound like 'they' were going to rip out your old water heater and force you to get a new energy efficient one! The sky is falling!!!

Actually, ours is 10 years in service this summer...looks brand new...we shall see how it holds up. Part of the 'story' above had a plumber suggesting 8-10 years was the useful life of a water heater and you'd better make arrangements if yours fell into that range.
The one we had in Atlanta was 22 years old when we took it out...AO Smith ca 1980...still running OK but we were having a serious plumbing re-do, so off it went. No hard water back there/then.

 

[TheTexasTom]

It's not nit picky if I'm right!

Timely info since my heater is kinda old and yes, space is limited. TKS.

Does anyone have particular recommendation(s) for propane heaters?

I have a couple A.O. Smith propane heaters that have worked well for a number of years. I would buy them again.

 

[karlac]

Now if you go tankless or electric you open up other options. Electric will kill your light bill. Tankless can be great if you get a good gas one. I did just under 100 all electric Energy Star certified houses a few years back with tankless water heaters mounted on the wall in the utility rooms, the electric meter looked like a ceiling fan when the hot water was running, LOL. We had no option other than all electric and between inherent high costs of electric heat (compared to natural gas) and the water heaters the buyers got hosed on their bills. (Another area where internet minds will want to argue, they will read that electric heating is a lot more efficient that gas, but in the real world we all know it costs a lot more to operate.)

The issue with natural gas tankless is expense, but you can mount them in a lot of tighter places. I have mounted a few on exterior mounts on houses, they work great, lot of noise when running, got to have enhanced ventilation and exhaust when indoors, but on the whole pretty good. Their life cycle seems to be shorter though.

Well said.

Gas is indeed the best option by far. I've put tankless/gas in the last four custom homes I've built, three in Houston area and one outside Austin. The first one over ten years ago when it was still relatively new to Texas. IME, retrofitting, which has historically needed a lot more informed planning and expertise than new construction, still might not be cost effective in some jurisdictions (particularly municipalities that haven't adopted PEX in their codes, precluding an easily done manifold distribution system).

Equipment has gotten a lot better in the interim, to the point that I now welcome the opportunity to have a gas tankless system in the plans in most places.

 

[shortround]

Our old 60 gallon electric water heater started leaking two years ago ... it was installed new in 1991.

The replacement was one of the new "Energy Star" types. It is fatter and shorter than the old one, but still 60 gallons.

Installation was not difficult at all. Had to build a reinforced platform 12 inches up from the floor.

Bought some new plumbing hook-ups, and everything fit perfectly.

The "energy-saving" heat setting did not deliver hot water at all. It was easy to reprogram the circuit board to keep a constant 120 degree setting.

Water runs hot when I want it, and have not seen a higher power bill.

The "Energy Star" rating is just a gimmick.

Be well.

 

[Tony2]

If it isn't a hot water heater then at what point does heat cease to exist?

 

[Brains]

People who rely on the internet for all their information sometimes do not get the big picture, it is a common occurrence with the younger generation. They read it, then think that they know it all. Seems like we have a prime example here. Those that actually do these things on a semi regular basis know the difference.

*snip*

Ok, I am going to leave it here. You guys can go read and make your own decisions.

Dude. A tape measure. It's really that simple. This isn't rocket science, it's a water heater. You measure the hole, and you select the unit you can put through/in said hole. Yes, ladder springs and support arms count as part of the hole. Like I mentioned above, I heard the news so I measured mine, and I can comfortably fit a 22.5 inch water heater through my opening. Plenty of roof height to walk it up the ladder and set it down. Do you figure the trades figure this stuff out any differently? No, they measure, and they install the unit they know fits through the hole. I feel confident that I'm good if I need to put another tank up there.

You should realize the WHOLE point of my post is merely to point out there are 2015 compliant units that are the same size as the older units they'll replace. Not to try and post a full page diatribe explaining all the ins and outs of water heaters in an attempt to somehow prove my 'expertise.'

Personally, I'm planning to go tankless when the twin 40's I have today give up the ghost. Planned ahead when building the house, have a beautiful spot right next to the manifold waiting to mount it to, plenty of gas supply, electric, and venting are all ready to go. The 40's were 'included' in the build, and the incremental cost was too high for the tankless from the builder, so there they are.

 

[vmax]

If it maintains hot water's temperature, then wouldn't it be a hot water heater?

what temperature is the water going into said heater?

If the purpose of your device was to maintain a hot temperature, you might have more of like a boiler or second stage heater on your hands.

now, if you are taking cold water and heating it to a desired temperature, you'd have yourself a water heater.

it's like people who say ATM machine.. it's redundant redundant ..

 

[vmax]

once my tanked water heater goes out, I'll replace it with a tankless model.

I put one in a second residence and they are awesome. I don't pay to keep water hot just in case I need some. I only pay for it when I need it and it takes up less than half the space of a tanked water heater

 

[busykngt]

(Assuming ours doesn't leak before then).
Water heater in the attic?????????????

That's my experience; I think it's a crazy idea to have a hot water heater in the attic.
I had one wear out and leak in an interior closet one time and basically flood the house.
I can't even visualize what kind of damage a hot water tank leak would do ABOVE the
ceiling! If I ever bought a house with a hot water tank in the attic, that's the FIRST
thing I'd pay to have relocated the garage! Just sayin'....

 

[308nato]

That's my experience; I think it's a crazy idea to have a hot water heater in the attic.
I had one wear out and leak in an interior closet one time and basically flood the house.
I can't even visualize what kind of damage a hot water tank leak would do ABOVE the
ceiling! If I ever bought a house with a hot water tank in the attic, that's the FIRST
thing I'd pay to have relocated the garage! Just sayin'....

My daughter had that happen years ago , so when I had my house built I had the tank installed in the attached garage.
Also my well tank sits next to the water heater tank.

 

[Mexican_Hippie]

Mine's in the garage. Plenty of room.

 

[flash_outdoors]

Had to deal with this on our remodel. Ended up locating a new tankless outside

 

[mitchntx]

(for all you nit pickers, notice how I did not say 'Hot Water Heater', LOL)

NPs just like to read their own words.

Cold water comes in and sits for long periods of time. Then maintains the temperature MOST of the time.

So for the initial 5 minutes, it is indeed a "water heater".
The rest of the time it is maintaining and therefore heating already hot water.

 

[45tex]

Radio commercials have been warning about this since last year. Had to get a new unit last month. Went to big box, picked out the moderate priced unit. Only buy them once a decade or so. Brought it home and installed it in the garage. Because its in the garage I always buy and install an outer blanket for it anyway. So I guess more room is not an issue.
If prices ever come down on tankless I'd go that direction in a minute.

 

[rgwalt]

How much difference is there in cost between conventional and tankless gas water heaters on new construction? From what I understand, retrofitting an existing house with tankless won't pay off over the life of the unit since conventional heaters are so much cheaper to buy & install, and while they are less efficient than tankless (keeping water hot all the time as opposed to on-demand), the efficiency loss doesn't offset the increased cost.

I want gas for sure in my next house. Electric heat and hot water is way too expensive. While electric might be more efficient in terms of energy transferred, on a per unit energy basis, natural gas is far cheaper than electricity.

 

[karlac]

How much difference is there in cost between conventional and tankless gas water heaters on new construction?

Impossible to say. Difference in the cost of the units themselves can run to a couple of thousand.

Cost of installation in existing structures depends on the location of the unit with regard to ease of installing, location of existing gas line(s), distance to install the required venting, and for efficiency, i.e the length of the runs to the hot water in bath, kitchen and utility rooms (where some might need intermediate pumps). Building new, all that can be planned out to optimize efficiency.

Up front difference in cost for the builder, probably averages around $2500 ballpark, depending upon area and local codes. Houston allows PEX, which makes runs to fixtures more efficient, and unless you live in one of the bigger new homes in the Heights, the cost of purchase and installation of a gas tankless can make sense. As always, I would not consider an electric unit as an alternative unless you have at least an existing 200A service to the home ... a whole house electric unit typically requires a 60A hookup, IME.