Church Sign Question

[hornetguy]

It was my understanding, after taking my LTC course, given by two police officers, that unless a person absolutely refuses to leave after being verbally asked, and "creates a scene", that there is little chance of arrest, etc...

We were told that the big danger is that if there is a report made, you could stand a very real chance of having your LTC revoked, or not renewed. Same thing with drinking while carrying, even if you are under the legal limit, if "caught" you chance losing your LTC.

I do not know how true that is, but I do not want to test the premise...

all that said, I agree with what others have stated.... concealed means concealed. I have carried a few times past the '06 sign.... and if I had been caught and asked to leave, I would have left.

 

[Axxe55]

It was my understanding, after taking my LTC course, given by two police officers, that unless a person absolutely refuses to leave after being verbally asked, and "creates a scene", that there is little chance of arrest, etc...

We were told that the big danger is that if there is a report made, you could stand a very real chance of having your LTC revoked, or not renewed. Same thing with drinking while carrying, even if you are under the legal limit, if "caught" you chance losing your LTC.

I do not know how true that is, but I do not want to test the premise...

all that said, I agree with what others have stated.... concealed means concealed. I have carried a few times past the '06 sign.... and if I had been caught and asked to leave, I would have left.

iirc you have to have a bac enought you are not legal to operate a motor vehicle!

 

[carlson1]

I am a Pastor and I allow conceal carry all day long. From time to time we have an open carry and it hasn’t been a big deal. I know I would be changing churches if I wasn’t allowed to carry at church. Just like any other business I just leave.

 

[PracticalCarry]

Our church does not have any 30.05, .06 or .07 signs posted; however, two issues:

1. I remember several years before covid closed our church, the pastor announced at the beginning of the service for three Sundays in a row no guns in church. About one year ago the church moved to a new location several miles away. Does the actual knowledge of the "no-gun" policy apply to the new building, assuming you originally heard it?

2. I recently noticed the 30.05, .06 and .07 notices posted in the Sunday bulletin in very, very small print (not bold either) down at the bottom of one of the pages. Does that prevent someone from carrying in the church? Especially, if you never heard the original policy from probably about four years ago or never saw it in the bulletin?

Thanks in advance. I am anxious to hear everyone's thoughts.

I've seen several perspectives shared. FWIW, I'm currently and have been an LTC instructor for about 5 years now. For things like this, I like to just share the relevant legal reference. See below. Net though is that "effective notice" can be communicated in a number of ways such as a school's code of conduct, Costco's membership agreement, appropriate signs, even Sunday flyers - or, verbally. Once you have received effective notice, a licensee under 411 Subchapter H is expected to adhere to that. As I say in class "you don't know until you know but once you know, you've got to go". Playing internet lawyer is risky when carrying but if you do have to use your weapon, being in violation could invalidate your ability to claim a legal defense because a requirement is that you are where you are supposed to be doing what you are supposed to be doing and not violating anything more than a class c misdemeanor (speeding ticket level).

In the end, we each have to make our own decision but if you want to play it safe and adhere to the spirit of the law, see if you can get written permission to carry from the Pastor, or, organize or join a church defense team if they will allow it...

Tex. Penal Code Section 30.06
Trespass by License Holder with a Concealed Handgun​

(a)​

A license holder commits an offense if the license holder:

(1)​

carries a concealed handgun under the authority of Subchapter H (Definitions), Chapter 411 (Department of Public Safety of the State of Texas), Government Code, on property of another without effective consent; and

(2)​

received notice that entry on the property by a license holder with a concealed handgun was forbidden.

(b)​

For purposes of this section, a person receives notice if the owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner provides notice to the person by oral or written communication.

To read the whole thing, grab a cup of coffee and enjoy... https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/GV/htm/GV.411.htm

 

[PracticalCarry]

iirc you have to have a bac enought you are not legal to operate a motor vehicle!

.08 BAC in Texas or any condition that prevents normal bodily operations or impairment. (illegal drugs, exhaustion, RX meds, etc. count as well).

 

[Random Vato]

Our church does not have any 30.05, .06 or .07 signs posted; however, two issues:

1. I remember several years before covid closed our church, the pastor announced at the beginning of the service for three Sundays in a row no guns in church. About one year ago the church moved to a new location several miles away. Does the actual knowledge of the "no-gun" policy apply to the new building, assuming you originally heard it?

2. I recently noticed the 30.05, .06 and .07 notices posted in the Sunday bulletin in very, very small print (not bold either) down at the bottom of one of the pages. Does that prevent someone from carrying in the church? Especially, if you never heard the original policy from probably about four years ago or never saw it in the bulletin?

Thanks in advance. I am anxious to hear everyone's thoughts.

I haven’t read up on 30.05 laws. I do know if you have a LTC :
- violating a posted 30.06 or 30.07 is punishable by getting a citation, if you’re caught
- violating a verbal notice is punishable by arrest / jail plus fines
- a written notice given to you in person I believe is similar to a verbal notice

 

[PracticalCarry]

iirc you have to have a bac enought you are not legal to operate a motor vehicle!

The new iteration of the Criminal Trespass law basically says that if licensed, you get a "whoopsie" if busted on the wrong side of a 30.06 sign so long as you do not argue and leave immediately. Similarly, the law was changed from "may" to "shall" with regard to TSA and airport security checks for licensed folks that doof off and have their weapon - you shall be allowed to return the weapon to your vehicle, etc. This is a great reason to get your LTC - without it, in both cases (30.06 and TSA) you get an immediate criminal charge which would be unpleasant.

 

[PastorGman]

I was a pastor for almost 20 years. Pastored churches in Central Texas and in Colorado Springs, CO. I actually carried concealed many times while I preached and if somebody in the church carried that was Ok with me.

 

[ZX9RCAM]

I was a pastor for almost 20 years. Pastored churches in Central Texas and in Colorado Springs, CO. I actually carried concealed many times while I preached and if somebody in the church carried that was Ok with me.

Welcome to the Forum!

 

[bullgator]

Verbal notice is not sufficient?
Maybe I was thinking about trespassing, lol.
My bad.

Our pastor invited me and several others to carry. He and his wife have LTC licenses. One Sunday this dude came into church and came down and sat directly in front of Pastor. After about 10 minutes he pulled a kerchief up over his nose. When he did that, slipped my conceal carry out of my holster and slipped it under my leg. One of my friends quietly whispered if I had my gun with me? I was maybe 6-8 feet away 4 o'clock. A couple of minutes after she asked if I had my gun, he pulled down his mask and got up and left. It took me about 4 years later to ask Pastor about what he thought about that incident? He told me he has wished he had his carry on him and was more than lightly perturbed. I of course felt the same way and was glad when he took his mask down and left. I quietly returned my Keltec P11 to it's holster and never said anything other than thank you Lord Jesus in prayer.

 

[Sasquatch]

Our pastor invited me and several others to carry. He and his wife have LTC licenses. One Sunday this dude came into church and came down and sat directly in front of Pastor. After about 10 minutes he pulled a kerchief up over his nose. When he did that, slipped my conceal carry out of my holster and slipped it under my leg. One of my friends quietly whispered if I had my gun with me? I was maybe 6-8 feet away 4 o'clock. A couple of minutes after she asked if I had my gun, he pulled down his mask and got up and left. It took me about 4 years later to ask Pastor about what he thought about that incident? He told me he has wished he had his carry on him and was more than lightly perturbed. I of course felt the same way and was glad when he took his mask down and left. I quietly returned my Keltec P11 to it's holster and never said anything other than thank you Lord Jesus in prayer.

That's certainly some weird behavior and sounds like your actions were just - and thank God that nothing came of the incident.

 

[Recoil Therapy]

Our church does not have any 30.05, .06 or .07 signs posted; however, two issues:

1. I remember several years before covid closed our church, the pastor announced at the beginning of the service for three Sundays in a row no guns in church. About one year ago the church moved to a new location several miles away. Does the actual knowledge of the "no-gun" policy apply to the new building, assuming you originally heard it?

2. I recently noticed the 30.05, .06 and .07 notices posted in the Sunday bulletin in very, very small print (not bold either) down at the bottom of one of the pages. Does that prevent someone from carrying in the church? Especially, if you never heard the original policy from probably about four years ago or never saw it in the bulletin?

Thanks in advance. I am anxious to hear everyone's thoughts.

To carry the force of law, it must be posted conspicuously at entrances, in contrasting lettering (white letters, black background or vise versa) and in lettering at least 1" tall. Otherwise, it would need to be *proven* that you were given effective notice that carrying weapons on the property was forbidden.

In other words feel free to disregard the tiny print in the church bulletin. It doesn't comply with 30.06 or 30.07 of TPC 46.2.

In fact, you should always disregard disarmament signs. I could never forgive myself if my loved ones, myself, or regular jerks in public were victimized because I chose to obey a bad, stupid law.

Per Texas penal code 46.03

o) A person may provide notice that firearms and other weapons are prohibited under Section 46.03 on the premises or other property, as applicable, by posting a sign at each entrance to the premises or other property that:
(1) includes language that is identical to or substantially similar to the following: "Pursuant to Section 46.03, Penal Code (places weapons prohibited), a person may not carry a firearm or other weapon on this property";
(2) includes the language described by Subdivision (1) in both English and Spanish;
(3) appears in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height; and
(4) is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.
(p) Sections 46.03(a)(7), (11), and (13) do not apply if the actor:
(1) carries a handgun on the premises or other property, as applicable;
(2) holds a license to carry a handgun issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code; and
(3) was not given effective notice under Section 30.06 or 30.07 of this code or Section 411.204, Government Code, as applicable.
(q) Section 46.03(a)(8) does not apply if the actor:
(1) carries a handgun on a premises where a collegiate sporting event is taking place;
(2) holds a license to carry a handgun issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code; and
(3) was not given effective notice under Section 30.06 or 30.07 of this code, as applicable.