Bullet Pointing

[DocBeech]

This is an article that covers bullet pointing, and the risks/rewards associated with it. Enjoy, and if you have any questions as always feel free to ask.

https://appliedballisticsllc.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Bullet-Pointing.pdf

 

[Gordo]

Wuts a meplat?

 

[Gordo]

Oh, that is what it is...

 

[Lonesome Dove]

I like bullets as they are and the way they were meant to be.

 

[RankAmateur]

This is an article that covers bullet pointing, and the risks/rewards associated with it. Enjoy, and if you have any questions as always feel free to ask.

https://appliedballisticsllc.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Bullet-Pointing.pdf

First, welcome to TGT, and thanks for joining/posting to this forum. We all can't help but benefit from accurate technical expertise freely offered. Your association as a technical support specialist at Applied Ballistics certainly qualifies you, so again, thanks.

Then, I'l contextualize my questions in two ways. First, this post appears in the "Beginner Articles" section of TGT, and second, I'm an avid F-Class shooter. To the first point, I struggle with bullet pointing being a beginner topic, but there is probably no better place to post this so all's good.

Per your article, the benefit of bullet pointing (assuming it is done properly) is improvement in BC. This benefit will be essentially undetectable at short ranges (as you suggest, the 1-200yd range). How much benefit will be seen by improving BC by 1-5% at even longer ranges (like those typically shot for F-Class - 300-1000 yds)? By improvement, I'm interested in the effect seen on paper. As BC values change with velocity, is the % improvement you mention in your article the maximal improvement at a peak velocity, or is it averaged over the range of BCs measured over the flight of the bullet? Is bullet pointing only (practically) "worth while" if one is maximizing velocity in match loads that often well exceed published "max" load data, or, does it also proportionally improve slower "standard" loads?

I'm not asking for simple yes or no answers, but rather more of a narrative from your knowledge. Perhaps it would be easier for you to respond to a premise. I believe that everything one does to "perfect" their hand-loads has a benefit to precision on target. But, I also believe that the various techniques/details yield proportional benefits. For example, I've observed that consistent powder charges and consistent, optimized seating depths have greater "on-target" effects than uniforming primer pockets. I've further observed that shooter technique is often FAR more important in this regard than almost anything "extra" done in the loading room. I'd also go so far as to opine that wind-reading outweighs almost anything else during "breezy" conditions (grin). So, in this context, where does bullet pointing fall in the spectrum of all of the things that affect precision/accuracy at ranges over 500 yds?

Thanks in advance for your response!!

 

[DocBeech]

First, welcome to TGT, and thanks for joining/posting to this forum. We all can't help but benefit from accurate technical expertise freely offered. Your association as a technical support specialist at Applied Ballistics certainly qualifies you, so again, thanks.

Then, I'l contextualize my questions in two ways. First, this post appears in the "Beginner Articles" section of TGT, and second, I'm an avid F-Class shooter. To the first point, I struggle with bullet pointing being a beginner topic, but there is probably no better place to post this so all's good.

Per your article, the benefit of bullet pointing (assuming it is done properly) is improvement in BC. This benefit will be essentially undetectable at short ranges (as you suggest, the 1-200yd range). How much benefit will be seen by improving BC by 1-5% at even longer ranges (like those typically shot for F-Class - 300-1000 yds)? By improvement, I'm interested in the effect seen on paper. As BC values change with velocity, is the % improvement you mention in your article the maximal improvement at a peak velocity, or is it averaged over the range of BCs measured over the flight of the bullet? Is bullet pointing only (practically) "worth while" if one is maximizing velocity in match loads that often well exceed published "max" load data, or, does it also proportionally improve slower "standard" loads?

I'm not asking for simple yes or no answers, but rather more of a narrative from your knowledge. Perhaps it would be easier for you to respond to a premise. I believe that everything one does to "perfect" their hand-loads has a benefit to precision on target. But, I also believe that the various techniques/details yield proportional benefits. For example, I've observed that consistent powder charges and consistent, optimized seating depths have greater "on-target" effects than uniforming primer pockets. I've further observed that shooter technique is often FAR more important in this regard than almost anything "extra" done in the loading room. I'd also go so far as to opine that wind-reading outweighs almost anything else during "breezy" conditions (grin). So, in this context, where does bullet pointing fall in the spectrum of all of the things that affect precision/accuracy at ranges over 500 yds?

Thanks in advance for your response!!

So this is a bit of a multi faceted problem. The first thing is to address that a lot of shooters will both point and trim. Pointing improves our BC and slightly uniformity. Trimming improves uniformity and reduces your BC/Performance. So keeping that in mind, because it comes up in questions I get regularly.

The second and big problem is BC SD. This varies widely and we are doing more research on this but some really well made bullets have a BC SD of only 0.5% while others I have seen have been really extreme like one Hornady A Tip which showed near 5% BC SD. This means each shot had a variation in performance of 5%. You also cannot point or trim this bullet to clean it up (which is the only reason I mention it here), and if you have a bullet with a really good starting BC SD you DO NOT WANT TO TOUCH IT. Do not Point or Trim bullets with really low BC SDs because you risk damaging this.

The third thing to tackle is how much are your pointing. If your bullets have a rather large meplat, and you are able to reduce it in size by half then you will see a large improvement in BC (think like 5%). Think if you go from like 0.08" to 0.04" through the reduction.

Overall the total average we saw in our lab results was a BC improvement of about 2.7% across the board. This was a live fire test of over 1,500 bullets. Some high quality bullets didn't show much improvement at all. The Berger 105 Hybrid changed 1.4%. From .278 to .282 G7 BC. But the Sierra 80gr Matchking saw a 5.5% increase in BC.

When considering pointing and trimming you also need to consider if your mechanical dispersion and your muzzle velocity dispersion are under control first. Trying to fix too many things at once can only lead you to chasing tails. This is something I have run across time and time again. Where someone will call asking for help, and they want to know how to calibrate out for their pointing. Well they are doing load development, ladder tests, and calibration all at once. So one hot mess. You need to first get your rifle mechanically sound. Then you need to get your seating depth and muzzle velocity dispersion under control. Then you can mess with pointing. Then once its all settled down you can do a ballistic calibration to account for all of this. Going to the range one or two times and trying to do this all at once has caused a lot of shooters a lot of problems. Solve.... one.... condition.... at.... a.... time...

To answer your question in an easy beginner way use the Whidden Pointing Die set. On average we saw bullets that were pointed with the #1 insert to improve about 4%. The #2 insert saw an improvement of about 1.2%. And those pointed with the #0 insert saw about a 2% BC improvement. This isn't exact but it was our relative results.

Yes, BC values are not a constant and these are the overall averaged BC improvements. It is incredibly important to find bullets that have consistent BCs to start any long range journey. We are working on another article that actually covers this.

Trimming bullets decreased the BC by about 3.7% but in some cases by as much as 8%. I don't recommend this unless you shoot at short distances, like benchrest.

Also if you don't know what you are doing, over pointing can damage the bullets and cause a serous loss in performance. So it is better to point to little than even the tiniest bit too much.

Lastly, sorting bullets will give you the most benefit in F-Match shooting and other long range sports. I will likely publish another article which covers this, and our lab results on the best way to sort bullets. But, in short, if you want to see really good results sort your bullets.

Hopefully this helped, and if you have any other questions please let me know, and you are correct no amount of extra work will help with poor shooter fundamentals.

 

[RankAmateur]

Thanks. So, am I understanding your thoughts in that bullet pointing is almost the last procedure one should consider in improving match performance at mid to long ranges? Correct shooting fundamentals come first. Then, mechanical optimization of the rifle. Then, precision load development (brass prep, bullet selection, powder selection, primer selection, charge optimization, seating depth optimization). Then bullet sorting. Then pointing?

The objective of all of this would be minimization of velocity deviations (minimized SD) which should translate, at a minimum, to narrow vertical dispersal. In the setting of longer range accuracy competition (such as F-Class or ELR) the value of pointing would be proportional to increasing distance to target, and inversely proportional to the starting BC of the bullet (you wrote that the improvement of BC SD was lower on really well made bullets).

So, pressure-testing my understanding, if the shooter/rifle/ammunition starting point is producing 20 round strings with 1/4 MOA vertical dispersal at 500 yds, and measured velocity SD <10 FPS (both at the muzzle and at the target), the effect of pointing those bullets might not even be measurable in the noise. Conversely, pointing would become more and more relevant to accuracy (hit rate or score) as distance increases to 1,000 yds, 1 mile and beyond. At ranges between 300 and 500 yds, pointing is probably not relevant (?), and at distances under 300 yds, precision/accuracy are probably better pursued with lighter bullets/shorter bullets/flat base bullets, and slow barrel twist rates.

Am I tracking? Please correct my understanding if I've strayed off the path. I look forward to your article on sorting. Thanks again!!

 

[DocBeech]

Thanks. So, am I understanding your thoughts in that bullet pointing is almost the last procedure one should consider in improving match performance at mid to long ranges? Correct shooting fundamentals come first. Then, mechanical optimization of the rifle. Then, precision load development (brass prep, bullet selection, powder selection, primer selection, charge optimization, seating depth optimization). Then bullet sorting. Then pointing?

The objective of all of this would be minimization of velocity deviations (minimized SD) which should translate, at a minimum, to narrow vertical dispersal. In the setting of longer range accuracy competition (such as F-Class or ELR) the value of pointing would be proportional to increasing distance to target, and inversely proportional to the starting BC of the bullet (you wrote that the improvement of BC SD was lower on really well made bullets).

So, pressure-testing my understanding, if the shooter/rifle/ammunition starting point is producing 20 round strings with 1/4 MOA vertical dispersal at 500 yds, and measured velocity SD <10 FPS (both at the muzzle and at the target), the effect of pointing those bullets might not even be measurable in the noise. Conversely, pointing would become more and more relevant to accuracy (hit rate or score) as distance increases to 1,000 yds, 1 mile and beyond. At ranges between 300 and 500 yds, pointing is probably not relevant (?), and at distances under 300 yds, precision/accuracy are probably better pursued with lighter bullets/shorter bullets/flat base bullets, and slow barrel twist rates.

Am I tracking? Please correct my understanding if I've strayed off the path. I look forward to your article on sorting. Thanks again!!

That is correct, especially in terms of order. Shooters need to start at the bottom, and the save the more complex processes for last. Especially ones that could cause problems (over pointing) they may not recognize through the fog of other issues.

So yes, the improvement can be less on really well made bullets. But in F-Class and other competitive sports we tend to shoot pointier less forgiving bullets (sometimes, as Hybrids are still extremely popular) but many shooters choose to use a secant ogive. Which are more jump sensitive, more load sensitive, and pointier. So you get less benefit (you still get something) from pointing say vs a fat tangent bullet with a hefty meplat. And now we are no longer in beginner section but ah well that's the game.

So you are kind of tracking. As their are games that are played in hundredths of an inch. In which case you will be pointing and trimming them. The loss in BC doesn't matter in some of those competitions. You aren't shooting far enough to care. But the loss in vertical spread does.

The last time I pointed, but didn't trim, I was shooting the Fly Match. I took 2nd place, and my shooting partner took first place. We absolutely pointed and that was at 500 meters. The bullseye is about 0.7 inches by 0.6 inches at 500 meters. So it is user based. If you are shooting PRS style or tactical matches. Likely doesn't matter. It all depends on the game you play. But beyond 1000 yards you should be sorting, and if need be you can point for that 2% advantage. 2% may not be much at 300 yards, but 2% at 1800 yards can get rough.

Another big thing new shooters have to learn. Is to let go of flyers in a match. If you shoot 3 rounds and they are performing like you expect, you are walking on target. Then you shoot one round that goes holy crap off in left field. Look at your conditions, look at what just happened, and does it make sense. If it doesn't... let it go. But that goes back to fundamentals. And when you are working through each of these steps, from easiest to complex. You need to learn when to let something go that was a misnomer in the data.

 

[Otto_Mation]

Wuts a meplat?

From the interwebs: The meplat is a term used in ballistics to refer to the flat or open tip on the nose of a bullet or projectile. The shape and size of the meplat have a significant effect on the ballistic coefficient of a bullet. Most traditional Open Tip Match (OTM) style bullets have a small opening at the very end of the meplat, which allows for air to gather in flight and create an air pocket that fills in the missing point in a perfect geometric shape, increasing the BC of the bullet.

 

[bbbass]

Hmmmm, and here I always thought it easy.... pointy end goes OUT!

 

[Gordo]

Another big thing new shooters have to learn. Is to let go of flyers in a match. If you shoot 3 rounds and they are performing like you expect, you are walking on target. Then you shoot one round that goes holy crap off in left field. Look at your conditions, look at what just happened, and does it make sense. If it doesn't... let it go. But that goes back to fundamentals. And when you are working through each of these steps, from easiest to complex. You need to learn when to let something go that was a misnomer in the data.

And here I thought it was my hand tremors...
Can I let go of 50% of my shots?

 

[DocBeech]

And here I thought it was my hand tremors...
Can I let go of 50% of my shots?

Only if you can see your heart rhythm in your scope.

 

[Gordo]

Stop validating my excuses...

 

[DocBeech]

Stop validating my excuses...

But then you won't have any reason to be on the internet. Sorry, but I must validate this excuse which had a point of validating your excuses.