Appleseed - Anyone Done It?

[tweek]

I've been interested in this program, but I think I'd rather pay more for better instruction for myself and my family. Here in Dallas there seem to be several very interesting training opportunities. That or I get one of my Sniper friends to work with me (beer, steak and bullets are cheap).

Appleseed sounds like a great program and I think our country needs to stay in touch with its roots. Hopefully the organizers are listening to the feedback and will adapt.

 

[MR Redneck]

I treated Bonnie to an Appleseed event for her birthday. It did NOT go well. Both of us are experienced match shooters at Master to High Master level but we are also older (60+) shooters. The pace is FRANTIC and if a person doesn't catch on, they get left behind. The saddest part was to see ladies and kids who were not skilled get left behind in the dust. The good shooters prosper and the ones who really need instruction and patience fail.

If you have any physical issues that keep you from dropping into positions with VERY short time limitations, they will grind your ass into the dust! Bonnie had major back surgery and cannot shoot from positions. She uses a little table that I made for her and she shoots High Master at 200 yards! She was disqualified from shooting for "Rifleman" because she shot from a table! We arranged for her adaptive equipment well in advance but didn't know they would disqualify her for using it!

One of the stories they tell about the Revolutionary War is about a very sick man who instructed his servants to prop him up in front of his home so he could fire at the Redcoats. That's where he died, defending his home and shooting from a rifle rest. He couldn't shoot from positions but he defended his country! He was a Rifleman! Bonnie is a 1st class Rifleman but she wasn't allowed to shoot for the rating.

Here's how the instruction works....... There is a huddle meeting where you are shown how to rig a sling. Two minutes of prep time are announced so you run to the firing line. Some who are not familiar with a sling struggle with rigging it, Commence fire is ordered for one minute. If you aren't rigged and ready, you don't get your rounds off and simply fail. Then they move on to the next instruction. If you didn't master the last stage....tough. That is VERY discouraging to a lady or kid shooter!

A kid next to me on the firing line kept saying "I want to go home!" He seldom hit the BACKING PAPER of his target! They just moved on and let him fail.

It is their philosophy that if you fail to shoot "rifleman" this time, you enroll in the next Appleseed and shoot it next time. In truth, folks get so discouraged that about 1/2 fail to show up for day 2 and couldn't be dragged with a team of horses to another shooting event!

We had a terrible experience. I've heard some say that they had a ball. My advice to you is do NOT take a lady or a new shooter....especially a kid to an Appleseed until you check it out first. That way you will know the routine, equipment requirements, quality of instruction and need for provisions. You will NOT have time to assist your lady or child once the Appleseed begins! After our experience, I checked Appleseed out completely. My information suggests that quality of instruction varies at each event. Some are great and some suck.

What is true in each is the frantic pace, quick instruction (show you once and then shoot for record with virtually no practice. Remember, you are not allowed to touch the firearms during a huddle session) with very short preps, no breaks and short firing intervals.

Need to pee? You dash to the porta potty and miss that instruction session. The pace is relentless!

Day one lasted 9 hours with a short "snatch as you can" lunch. We were broiled, dehydrated and beat to Hell. We did not return for day 2.

Sounds like fun, huh?

Flash

Sounds like a bunch of crap to me.. Dont see any benefit in doing that at all!!

 

[jsimmons]

The event info does say something about being physically able to run the course of fire. However, I think they should accommodate physically impaired shooters to some degree. Disqualification for shooting from a table seems pretty extreme to me. If I'm gonna spend 500 rounds of 5.56 ammo, I want to know it's going to be valuable training.

 

[matefrio]

Best to bring a 22lr the first time. You could easily pay for a Marlin 795 tech sights and ammo for under the cost of 500 rounds of .223. But if you want to know your platform this is one good way to get use to your gun.

 

[jsimmons]

Best to bring a 22lr the first time. You could easily pay for a Marlin 795 tech sights and ammo for under the cost of 500 rounds of .223. But if you want to know your platform this is one good way to get use to your gun.

None of my .22's are semi-autos (I have a Henry lever action and two CZ bolt guns), and they don't have sling swivels (they were used for silhouette which doesn't allow slings), so I essentially don't have a choice. I'm trying to get someone to trade me a S&W M&P15-22 for one of the CZ's but I'm not real sure that's ever gonna happen, so I'm kinda forced to use the AR at this point.

 

[ROGER4314]

I had a scoped 10-22 but Bonnie used a scoped Marlin bolt action that we call the "Bonnie Blaster." She is deadly with that rifle and has fired it in 200 yard matches. She shot the scores but then we found out she would be disqualified from shooting for "Rifleman."

My rifle is a scoped "one holer" 10-22 at 25 yards but the blazing Texas sun was coming in directly in our eyes and I got a lot of splatter in the scope. They recommend the "Tech Sight" on a 10-22. I had that sight and removed it from my 10-22 as it was too difficult to adjust and looked awful. The front sight for that set looks like someone hit it and it swelled up. It was sold. I installed a Williams peep on that rifle instead. It looks and works good.

That brings up another matter about Appleseed. As I posted earlier, the events are variable in quality and instruction. Ours was held at a private range and I hoped we would have a nice place to shoot. WRONG! We were taken to an embankment on the north side of the property. We fired from a cowtrail that was rough as a cob, hard as a rock and uneven as Hell. My left elbow was beaten up so badly that it swelled up to 1 1/2 times its normal size and that's what beat me. The shooting mat that I've used for years in matches was not up to the challenge of shooting for 9 blistering hours in that rough ass terrain. I'm no wimp but the pain from that elbow shut me down! The "range" was positioned so the sun was in our eyes the whole time. Forgive me but any rifle shooter knows that's crap. What were they thinking?

Summed up.....CHECK OUT THE APPLESEED FACILITY AND INSTRUCTION YOURSELF BEFORE YOU TAKE A KID OR A LADY TO IT! THE QUALITY OF INSTRUCTION AND FACILITIES VARIES FROM ONE EXTREME TO THE OTHER. DO NOT TRUST THEIR ADVERTISING, WEB SITES OR PERSONAL EXPERIENCE POSTS. IF THERE IS A NEGATIVE COMMENT....THEY REMOVE IT OR ATTACK IT. CHECK IT OUT YOURSELF!

Masaad Ayoob wrote a glowing critique of an Appleseed that he attended. I wrote to him and suggested that his event was superb because he is an internationally known gun and self defense writer. He got the best of everything! Some of the events are great. Some just suck.

The idea of Appleseed is good and we loved the stories of the Revolutionary War that we heard while attending. The events are manned by caring and GOOD people. The frantic pace, instruction that ignored the shooters who needed it most, willingness to let new shooters fail, lousy facility and failure to adapt for physical disabilities were intolerable. Sometimes good intentions don't end up the way we wanted them to.

In the end, I was crippled up and Bonnie had a really crappy birthday present by attending the Appleseed. PLEASE check it out before you drag your family out to an Appleseed! I hope that you find a good one and enjoy it. We didn't.

Flash

 

[olfart]

Having attended several Appleseeds at 3 different locations and with different instructors, I will agree that conditions and instructors vary to some degree. However, at all of the events I've attended, I've not seen anyone "left in the dust" because of physical infirmities or lack of experience.

My first Appleseed was at Shreveport in May 2010. I was lent a 10/22 by one of the instructors who had pity on my ancient bolt action .22. I found the instructors to be competent and caring. Despite all this, the heat and the pace of the course kicked my elderly backside. I went home and bought my own 10/22, installed the recommended Tech-Sights and a sling on it, then proceeded to practice positions. By the time I went to my second Appleseed at Atlanta, TX in October, I was in better shape and better prepared for what I faced. On the second day of my second event, I earned the patch with a score of 222 using my 10/22 with Tech-Sights. They offered me the orange hat of Instructor -in-Training, and I took it. I've now been to 3 other Appleseeds as an instructor-in-training, and I've had a ball working with folks to improve their marksmanship.

I'm sorry Roger had a bad experience with Appleseed. I do believe in the program enough to continue offering my time and energy so that more people can hear the message and improve their marksmanship to the level of our founding fathers.

 

[The Lox]

I have heard there is a lot of political discussion at these events too, shich is something I do not want to hear when I got to get shooting instruction. A lot of gun people think that other gun people think the same way because they are into guns, but that is not always the case and its just a pet peeve of mine that people keep that stuff to themselves unless they know me...

 

[jedwil]

I have heard there is a lot of political discussion at these events too, shich is something I do not want to hear when I got to get shooting instruction. A lot of gun people think that other gun people think the same way because they are into guns, but that is not always the case and its just a pet peeve of mine that people keep that stuff to themselves unless they know me...

Appleseed guys are supposed to avoid political discussions. Event participants are exempt.
Project Appleseed Home

 

[matefrio]

Honestly the course of fire is such that there is little time for conversation or debate amongst students. Lunch time and if you get there early is about it.

 

[The Lox]

Appleseed guys are supposed to avoid political discussions. Event participants are exempt.
Project Appleseed Home

Well I thought they went through the history of the Rifleman back to the Revolutionary days and what not. I read a review of a class someone went through and it talked about how through this section they started talking about all sorts of stuff that doesn't regard anything about shooting..

 

[SIG_Fiend]

Well I thought they went through the history of the Rifleman back to the Revolutionary days and what not. I read a review of a class someone went through and it talked about how through this section they started talking about all sorts of stuff that doesn't regard anything about shooting..

Yeah, they talk about the historical context of how the Revolutionary War began. That's one of the major points to what Appleseed is about.

 

[olfart]

I have heard there is a lot of political discussion at these events too, shich is something I do not want to hear when I got to get shooting instruction. A lot of gun people think that other gun people think the same way because they are into guns, but that is not always the case and its just a pet peeve of mine that people keep that stuff to themselves unless they know me...

Absolutely no political talk at Appleseeds. It's prohibited by the organization. What they DO talk about is how the Revolutionary War started and the effects of marksmanship on the outcome. The history is taught from the perspective of the individuals who were there at the time, not the broad overview that used to be taught in schools. No instructor at Appleseed will tell you what to think, only that you NEED to think and get off the couch. Get involved in the political process.

 

[London]

I'm assuming that this is on par with marksmanship training for the military? The basic course sounds like it covers the same ground; even the targets are the same.

I've been thinking about going to one of these, but if it's essentially the same as the military only with no tolerance for weapons malfs, etc on the timing, then I'll pass. Even the Air Force would give you a few extra secs to squeeze off your last few rounds if you had to clear a malf or swap out a broken rifle. I'm not enthusiastic about paying people to be even harder on me than the military.

The concept of leaving people behind doesn't sit well with me. They paid money to learn to shoot- so teach them! Symbolically it doesn't strike me as very patriotic, either. If we're fighting the enemy together and you can't get hits, well, too bad- you're just going to get left behind.

 

[olfart]

The training is almost exactly as military training was 50 years ago, condensed into two days instead of 3 weeks. In fact Appleseed instructors have been called in to instruct some military units in long range shooting before they deploy since current military training is short range CQB.

As for being left behind, I've not seen anyone left behind at the 5 Appleseeds I've attended (the last 3 as an instructor-in-training). The second day of training is repeatedly running the AQT for score, so it's not a once-and-done hit or miss situation. If your rifle malfunctions on one AQT, fix it and get your score up on the next one.

 

[SIG_Fiend]

The training is pure marksmanship fundamentals. It will not teach you how to fight with a rifle. However, mastery of the fundamentals is ultimately what we want, so it's still good training for the price. Just don't go into it thinking you're getting a "fighting rifle" type course.