Active Shooter - Carson City IHOP

[majormadmax]

More deep 'food for thought' from Gabe Suarez...

Active Shooter - Carson City IHOP

So this was the latest event -

Seven people were shot inside of a Carson City, Nevada, IHOP. Four died on scene. The gunman, Eduardo Sencion, as often happens, died of the self-inflicted wound to the head. Same story, different characters and location. What was telling about this one is a statement made by a witness to the event.

"The owner of the BBQ across the street had a clear shot of him walking into the IHOP after he killed the lady motorcycle rider but didn’t take it, citing "it was a pistol against an AK, what was I going to do?""

Now, I will bet this article is going to be super controversial. But in the vast majority of these events, the bad guy will either kill himself when he is done, or is eventually captured by the victims who could not take it anymore and charge the gunman while he is distracted in some manner. But until either one of those things happen, the killing continues.

There are arguments about inaction due to uncertainty, and fear of getting into aftermath trouble with the authorities. I would submit that the image of a man shooting people with a rifle is fairly conclusive and informative about what is going on. There are also arguments about getting involved. The usual story goes something like “I carry my CCW to defend me only”.

While it is hard to argue with that point of view, not everyone shares it. If your daughter or wife had been in that IHOP, and I was across the street with a handful of my instructor staff, would you have wanted us to intervene and kill the gunman before he killed your family, or would you prefer we share your isolationist view of CCW? That is a fair question, and I suspect we know the answer.

Certainly prudence is called for in our times when the clarity of events is not there. But when the clarity smacks you in the face like a fired case from a Kalashnikov, it is time to be a man, and not debate whether involvement is prudent. Not everyone can be a man when that is what events call for, but the world would be a better place if they could. The time to decide that is today my friends, not when you hear the first shot.

I'm looked at the scene on Google (3883 S. Carson, Carson City, NV) and the BBQ place is indeed just about 100 yards distant across a parking lot. 100 yards…not 100 miles. Close enough to see Eduardo Sencion shoot a female in front of the store as clear as day. This is not some vague parking lot fight between two men whose fight is none of our business. This is a true active shooter event and people will begin to die right now!

Options?

Witness – Non Combatant. This may be for two reasons. One might simply not be capable of doing anything. Consider the elderly veteran in a wheelchair. Every fiber in his body wants to get across that street and kill the gunman, but he cannot physically make it happen. Nor is his hand steady enough nor his eyesight keen enough to make the shot. His only recourse is to call for help. His desire is admirable and his tactics understandable.

The other reason is less admirable or understandable. That is when someone who should be capable of stopping the killing takes the lizard-like option of running back inside while the killer goes on unimpeded…and then tries to think, while dialing those fateful numbers “9 – 1 – 1”, that hopefully nobody’s wife and daughter is getting killed. There will be all manner of viable, logical, and reasonable reasons why that course of action was taken of course. Put a custom high dollar M4 with the best ammo and optics that money can buy at the fingertips of these guys and it will be as if that was a big hockey stick for all the good it will do. You can self elect for that, but that is hardly anything to brag about.

The next option. Combatant. This is the group that has the heart of the elderly veteran we spoke of earlier, but has the physical ability to make it happen. A combatant in this event could have done one of a number of things but they all involve and end with killing the bad guy.

1). Take the shot from across the street. “One hundred yards! Gabe…you must be crazy”. Well…I have been told that before, but nonetheless, taking the shot from across the street is quite a realistic and viable option. You won’t be able to do that with a five shot snubby or a pocket pistol, but with a suitably arranged full sized pistol it is not hard at all.

This is substantially easier to do if you have good ammunition (not just what was on sale at the local Wal-Mart), a good trigger (forget those NY triggers please), and good sights that can be indexed quickly on small or distant targets. I have seen shots like this taken with iron sights by young men with good eyes. Suarez International Staffers Ryan Acuff and Jon Payne have done this with their service Glocks at 300 yards in class (yes…in front of students), so 100 yards would be easy for them. But taking this shot will be considerably easier with a red dot mounted on the handgun. That is a fact that cannot be argued.

2). Arguments against the long shot involve an obstructed line of fire. If intervening vehicle or pedestrian traffic precludes the long shot what can one do? Either don’t take the shot and go call for help (hopefully nobody’s wife and daughter is getting killed), or close the gap for the shot.

100 yards. A man in good physical condition can cover that in about 12-15 seconds. Then take the shot. What’s that? You can’t run 100 yards? Well…that is a problem isn’t it? Once within distance, the shot will be considerably easier. This is not the time for some politically-correct challenge to drop the gun, or some other silly liability-averse tactic. Bring the pistol up, sight picture on the bad guy’s face, or even better, the back of his head, and then press carefully…as many times as needed. It will not be difficult to do once you see what he has been up to inside the restaurant while you crossed the street.

There will be those who have already decided that the death of your entire family is of no consequence to them since it has nothing to do with them. They will no doubt decry my words as insensitive, careless, perhaps even un-American. Whatever. I have a higher calling than the approval of lesser men, and so do you. Consider your family in that IHOP when Sension walks in with his rifle. What would you want me to do? Is it not proper for you to expect the same from yourself?

Choose today to be the combatant. Prepare yourself physically, mentally and with the correct equipment. This will not be the last one.

Agree? Disagree? Discuss.

Cheers! M2

 

[TexasRedneck]

This is something I've given thought to many times over the years. I've got to say that for me, the decision is to engage and take out at all costs if there's any possible way. Every second that passes is another hostage that can die. If a jury later decides I was "wrong", then so be it.....in my heart, I'll have done my duty.

 

[matefrio]

Bunch of quarterbacking from the couch in the article.

Every man facing this type of situation will have a split second to decide what to do and a lifetime to live with that decision.

Hitting a man sized target, with your carry gun, in the vitals at 100 yards is challenging.

 

[codygjohnson]

This past weekend, a friend and I set up a carbine course and shot it. 150 yards long, making 5 stops to shoot 4-5 targets each stop, then 8 - 4" x 4" pistol targets at 15 yards at the very end. My out of shape, fat ass was able to huff it in less than 45 seconds without a miss on the very first run.

Nearly anyone is capable of stepping in and stopping something like that if it came down to it. The key is to train and be in the right mindset to act. I just hope I would act if given the chance...I sure plan to.

 

[codygjohnson]

AND I actually ditched my trusty AR that weekend and did it with a new and unfamiliar SBR'd AK...

good ol slavs**t! hahaha!

 

[TexasRedneck]

I just hope I would act if given the chance...I sure plan to.

Repeated for truth....

NONE of us KNOW what we'll do - but the more we've thought about it, the more likely it is that we'll live through it.

 

[majormadmax]

I think with a lot of us, it is ingrained. I know my military background has given me the mindset to do what I can to stop the threat and protect those who may not be able to protect themselves. It would not take a second thought for me, but I can understand where others may not be so decisive or committed.

Now, whether I would be able to hit a moving man-sized target with a .45 caliber handgun at 100 yards under such conditions would remain to be seen; but I sure as hell would do my best to intervene when and where I could!

Cheers! M2

 

[Mexican_Hippie]

Shot hogs plenty of times with a P220 over 100 yds.I'm no Annie Oakley either. Nailing some jackass at least somewhere shouldn't be that hard.

Just keep shooting til you hit something vital

 

[espy59lc]

I agree with the article. I have been First Response to Active Shooter certified, and we trained in a HS school for 2 days, and 2 days in a shoot house.

I would hope I could perform in a real situation as well.

 

[BG1960]

Now, whether I would be able to hit a moving man-sized target with a .45 caliber handgun at 100 yards under such conditions would remain to be seen; but I sure as hell would do my best to intervene when and where I could!

This.

I watched a DPS chase a Suburban off I-10 yesterday afternoon. 90° off the freeway at high speed through a pasture. The Suburban was WFO, flying through the air most of the time. I knew the DPS Trooper's backup was minutes away because I passed them miles back. I stopped the truck ( pulling a 25' RV, so I wasn't gonna be able to jump two ditches and follow ) What would I do from 150 yards? Put rounds into that Suburban if they opened up on the lone DPS Trooper. ( Ruger Gunsite Scout was in the truck and handy )

All the Suburban's doors were open and I assume it was empty when the DPS got up to it at the treeline. The other units arrived and I moved on. If all I had was my .45 I would have still been doin' what I could from where I was at. Bein' that far off the road, the other units missed him the first time by. This was all in a pasture surrounded by woods on three sides, it was a real bad place to chase a load of apparently desperate people if you are a lone cop.

 

[XinTX]

Can you hit a target at 100 yards with a carry pistol? Probably. Could you hit in a location to do damage to the deranged moving gunman 100 yards away while your heart is racing (this is shooting a living, breathing, human after all, NOT a paper target)? Maybe. But perhaps the sound of a bullet whizzing by would take the shooters mind off his intended path and cause him to focus elsewhere, giving those inside some time to react. Some might head out the opposite door, especially if the shooter takes his rifle and now focuses his murderous intent toward you. Hopefully there is cover and you're already heading for it.

But it's difficult shooting at a living human. I think it was in the book "On Killing" where the author discussed how, in combat, many soldiers would intentionally miss their foes with shots as they just didn't have it in them to be killers. And as was said earlier, you have a split second to decide, but the rest of your life to live with that decision.

 

[jocat54]

I would like to think that I would try my best to either eliminate or stop the threat. At a 100 yards with a pistol with adrenalin flowing and him moving, I'm not sure but I would sure as heck try.

 

[DoubleActionCHL]

While most of us will thump our chests and agree with this article, the sad truth is most CHL holders are incapable of making such a shot and will likely end up killing an innocent bystander. Your primary responsibility is the safety of yourself and loved ones. Everything else is secondary. How proud will your fatherless child be growing up knowing his father died trying to save diners in an IHOP? While it might make a good story, I'm sure he'd rather have a living father watching him grow up. I'm not saying don't get involved. Understand the risks and the consequences. Be certain it's worth it. If the last time you shot was your qualification four years ago, this will not end well.

 

[Rum Runner]

While most of us will thump our chests and agree with this article, the sad truth is most CHL holders are incapable of making such a shot and will likely end up killing an innocent bystander.

I'd say they will likely miss. The odds of hitting hitting a bystander are pretty low assuming there is no one in the immediate vicinity. The odds of killing an innocent bystander are lower still.

Your primary responsibility is the safety of yourself and loved ones. Everything else is secondary. How proud will your fatherless child be growing up knowing his father died trying to save diners in an IHOP? While it might make a good story, I'm sure he'd rather have a living father watching him grow up.

What's he going to think of me if I had a chance to save lives and didn't? What am I going to think of myself?

I think I posted in another thread on this issue. AK vs CCW is the overriding factor IMO. If I am Gabe S, John P, or others with similar extensive training, well I like those odds. If its me...the odds suck. I am a pretty good shot at a non-moving inanimate object under no stress. I have zero training beyond that. You take even two of "me" and give one a handgun and the other an AK at 100 yards and I bet the AK wins 90% of the time. Yes, you "can cover that in about 12-15 seconds", but I can fire a crap ton of AK rounds in that same amount of time against someone with no tactical training.

So, while I agree with Gabe's sentiment and wish someone like him would have been "within reach" during this incident, expecting the same reaction and results from John Q. Public is a bit much. I think it is a valid argument for more training.

 

[smtimelevi]

I'd close that distance hoping he didnt see me and unload on him from cover if possible. No way I'm taking a 100 yard shot with a pistol if theres other people. Different to see how I would actually act in a real life situation though.

 

[DoubleActionCHL]

I'd say they will likely miss. The odds of hitting hitting a bystander are pretty low assuming there is no one in the immediate vicinity. The odds of killing an innocent bystander are lower still.

What's he going to think of me if I had a chance to save lives and didn't? What am I going to think of myself?

You won't be thinking much, when you're dead. I guarantee your kid would rather have a live Dad than a dead "hero."

Gabe's post is wishful thinking for most people. I disagree with your opinions on the odds of hitting an innocent bystander.

Here is an opinion from another noted instructor, but obviously from a different viewpoint:

20 Sept 11

"... what would I have done?"

In the wake of the IHOP restaurant shooting in Carson City, NV on 6 Sept
11, as expected, much has been made of the fact that apparently no one in the
restaurant at the time had a gun with which to repel/engage the criminal
murderer.

Many have asserted that, "If I had been there, I would have ..."

With any luck, none making that speculative statement will ever know!

When one is armed and finds himself in, or on the fringes of, such a
situation (as was actually the case with a person in a restaurant across the
street), he has a choice of voluntarily inserting himself (perhaps with lethal
force), or not. The person in this case chose not to become personally
involved.

When it is your turn, it will be your call, of course.

When directly, personally threatened, you may well have no choice. That,
of course, makes the deadly-force decision easy!

But, when you find yourself on the fringes, and not personally threatened
(at least for the present), what is the "correct" thing to do?

There is no good, nor even satisfactory, answer!

Being armed, of course, provides you with more options than are available
to the willfully unarmed. Being armed thus represents a heavy
responsibility. Once you decide to "go forward," voluntarily inserting yourself into
a situation in which you were not otherwise involved, the results cannot be
undone!

Understand that a situation like this will not have any species of "happy
ending," and, by your voluntarily participation, you will unavoidably
inherit some responsibility for the dependably bad outcome.

Still, your inner sense of right and wrong may demand that you take some
action.

So, you have to ask yourself, "What do I really know? What have I
personally witnessed? Is it possible that what is really taking place is not what
it outwardly appears to be? With what I have on me, and with were I am,
can I reliably make this shot, and stop this apparent evil decisively?

Once you shoot someone, saying "Oops!" immediately afterward will not
suffice to undo your decision! While we never have all the information we
would like, such a deadly-force decision still requires a heavy preponderance.
That is why police officers, responding to gunshots, usually hesitate
before shooting the first armed person they see. And, we are routinely
criticized for not taking action sooner. When we do take immediate action, we're
criticized for not hesitating!

Again, "happy endings" have a thousand proud fathers, while bad outcomes
are invariably orphans! As mentioned above, the latter is, by far, the
more likely of the two, no matter what you do, or chose not to do.

Either way, you'll likely second-guess yourself for the rest of your life,
which we all sincerely hope is long and prosperous!

Pray you never have to test that theory!

"'One, with God, is always a majority,' or, so goes the platitude, but
many have been burned at the stake while votes were still being counted!"

TB Reed

/John
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[matefrio]

Even if you shoot at 100 yards, save lives, and are a hero there will be a small but vocal minority who will discredit you for taking such a risk. These will include lawyers and LEOs and experts wanting to make a name for themselves or just anti gun by nature.

Fictional but very possible accounts follow:

"He got lucky, think of all the harm he could have done" - CHL instructor

"My child was in the line of sight and heard three bullets wizz buy before the guy dropped" - Witness outside.

"John Doe is very lucky no one was hurt. We cannot condone what he did while risking the lives of others in this town. The best thing he could have done is call 911 and let trained officers handle the situation." - Chief of Police and Gun Safety Advocate.

"Wow, he could have shot the wrong guy." - Texas Gun Talk Member


Not saying you should base your decision on this. Just that dammed if you do dammed if you don't.


One thing I'm 100% positive about is I'd have not said a thing about my CHL if I didn't display or shoot it unless directly asked by a LEO.

 

[Jon Payne]

Active Shooter Carson City IHOP Article

Here's a link to an article that's generated much discussion all over the web. link

 

[majormadmax]

Re: Active Shooter Carson City IHOP Article

We're talking about it as well...

http://www.texasguntalk.com/forums/...hl/27253-active-shooter-carson-city-ihop.html

Cheers! M2

 

[DoubleActionCHL]

Not saying you should base your decision on this. Just that dammed if you do dammed if you don't.

This is very true. There will likely be no heroic movie-like ending. Someone, perhaps many people, will condemn your actions. You will likely be sued. You may find yourself facing criminal charges. You could get killed, or escalate the situation prompting the shooter to kill people he wouldn't have attacked, otherwise.

You get to decide whether these risks are or are not worth it when you make your decision. I hope it's a good one.