.308 issues

[Josh66]

So, I loaded up 50 rounds today - 42 grains Varget, 168 grain Hornady A-Max, R-P brass (once fired, in my AR-10).

Full-length resized (Lee dies), but the bullets were very loose in the neck - even after crimping I can turn it slightly, half a degree maybe (I can't pull it out though). Primer pockets also seemed kind of loose - a few really loose...

They all chamber smoothly in a case gauge.

Now, I can't remember what I had them loaded with the first time around, but it was most likely the exact same load.


Is this normal for R-P brass? I mean, that they're only good for one or two loadings (after firing a second time, I expect all of the primer pockets to be too loose). One time and they're done? Seriously?

I don't reload much .308 (mostly a handgun shooter, and I almost always use Starline brass for handguns), so I'm not sure if this is all normal... Or is R-P brass just junk? (Or are Lee rifle dies junk? Never had an issue with their handgun dies...)


So, what say you? Take them apart and salvage the powder, or shoot them and just don't bother collecting the brass? The bullets could be used in something else too, I guess - as long as I seat them to the same depth.

 

[TexMex247]

I haven't had any issues like that in the past with Remington brass. It sounds like your sizing die could use some adjustment. Based on your primer pockets being loose, I would assume that you used a primer pocket swaging tool a bit too aggressively. However, if all you did was deprime them, then maybe you did get a bad batch of brass. It's true, there are slight thickness variation from brand to brand in primer cup thickness and diameter. Maybe your primers are undersized a bit, which would also be odd. After taking a few quick measures, this is how some of my components spec. out : Federal large rifle No.210 primers are exactly .210", wolf LR primers were about .2105 and CCI benchrest LR primers(older production) were closer to .2095". I don't load for the .308 but my .280 Remington cases had a primer pocket size of .208" which seems like a snug seated fit for any of these brands of primers. As far as shooting those loads, I don't know that I would do it. Not that they won't fire, but they will probably blow out the primers which could be damaging to your rifle. The inconsistent neck tension is also a dangerous thing. If these were all loaded in a rifle magazine, they could easily start to "set-back" as you fired them, potentially to a dangerous level. Anyhow, that's my 2 cents, I'd always rather be safe than sorry.

 

[Younggun]

I've over crimped pistol rounds causing them to turn in the case.

Don't load any rifle rounds that I crimp but maybe it's the same problem. Seat a few without crimping and see if the move. If they don't its a crimping problem.

If they do it's a die or brass problem.

 

[Josh66]

I actually haven't even touched the primer pockets (I don't even clean them, as I haven't seen where it actually makes a real-world difference) - deprime/resize, and that's it. It was new unprimed brass before the first firing.

I know that loose primer pockets are a sign of over-pressure - but is that normal after being fired just once with what I would call a 'standard' load. 42 grains of Varget doesn't seem especially hot for a 168 grain bullet, according to my manuals. Overall length is 2.750" - much longer than that and it wouldn't fit in the magazine (that length seems consistent with all of my manuals anyway).

The primers were Winchester Large Rifle (WLR) - I just measured one and it's .210".

I am leaning towards pulling the bullets though....

 

[Josh66]

Don't load any rifle rounds that I crimp but maybe it's the same problem. Seat a few without crimping and see if the move.

Prior to crimping, I could have pulled them out by hand. They went in with very little resistance.

Seems to me that the die resized the neck too large (but the primer pockets are loose too, so that's not the only issue with these cases). I'll have to take the die apart later and clean it, then measure the diameter of the mandrel...

 

[mikeofcontex]

When resizing, the neck should be expanded from the previous firing. It will be sized (reduced) in the neck part of the die a bit smaller than it should. The final size will be set by the neck sizing button on the decapping rod as it is extracted. I'd measure the diameter of the button. It should be .306 or there abouts. It would be possible that an incorrect button for .310 or .312 projectiles was installed and it would cause the necks to be oversized.

 

[Josh66]

Just measured it, and it is exactly .308". I guess I should chuck it up in a drill and get it down to .306" with some fine grit sandpaper (600 ought to work, I think - I have finer too)...?

edit
It's also slightly rough - not bad, but if I'm going to sand it down, I'll put a nice polish on it too.

 

[Josh66]

I also measured the mandrel on the neck only resizing die - that one is .305". (It has a collet that presses the neck against the mandrel.)



edit
I guess I could just run the brass through the full-length resizer, then through the neck only resizer - but that seems like more work than it should be - sanding the full-length mandrel down to the size of the neck only mandrel seems like the better option.

 

[Josh66]

Sanded down and polished.

 

[Vaquero]

I'm curious about the primer pockets.
Is this standard rifle brass or bench rest?

 

[Josh66]

Just standard Remington brass, loaded and fired once in an Armalite AR-10(T). Either Sierra Match Kings or Hornady A-Max, both 168 grains (those are all I shoot in .308) the first time around.

The neck sizing issue, I think I have figured out and fixed now, but I really don't know why the primer pockets are so loose after only being fired once. When I went back to measure everything, one primer actually just fell out of the primer pocket. WTF? lol. This brass has only been fired once.

 

[Josh66]

Also, I think it's worth mentioning that this is the first time this issue has ever came up with these dies. I've been using them for about 10 years (intermittently - I don't do as much rifle shooting as I'd like), and don't remember ever having this problem before.

Bad batch of brass?

(If it is just bad brass, I think I only improved the dies by sanding and polishing the mandrel...)

 

[Vaquero]

I think you got some bad brass.
If the dies performed well before, it defaults to the newest ingredient.

I'd shoot them. Not from a magazine though.

 

[Vaquero]

Did they stretch much?
Sounds like really soft brass.

 

[Josh66]

If I shoot them, I'll probably just load one at a time into the magazine (I don't want to cause unneeded wear on the extractor by dropping it in the chamber then closing the bolt on it).

I agree though - there was nothing wrong with the dies before. Though the full-length mandrel was .003" larger than the neck only mandrel.

I also have an Enfield (No. 5, MkI) rechambered for .308 - it may be safer to shoot them in that.

 

[Josh66]

Did they stretch much?
Sounds like really soft brass.

No, not much at all. Prior to loading, I trimmed them all - maybe only 5 out of the 50 even touched the blades of the trimmer. And they all checked out good in the gauge.

 

[Vaquero]

Not, not much at all. Prior to loading, I trimmed them all - maybe only 5 out of the 50 even touched the blades of the trimmer. And they all checked out good in the gauge.

Odd.

I like r-p pistol brass, but prefer Winchester brass for rifle.

Thanks for sharing the experience.

 

[Josh66]

Yeah - "odd" is all I can really come up with either. I just don't get it...

I've used a lot of other R-P brass, and don't recall ever having issues with it. Mostly .308 and .45 ACP.

Most of the reloading I do is .44 Mag and .38 Special/.357 Mag. And for that I use mostly Starline, or whatever brass I still have from store bought ammo - mostly Winchester.

 

[ROGER4314]

I preferred R-P brass and loaded thousands of them in 30-06 and .308. Was the brass new? If it was old and the neck brass flowed then the case was trimmed, the necks would be thin. Have you reamed the necks?

See if your expander plug came loose and screwed the plug too deep.

Loose primer pockets? Alarm sirens should be sounding right now! STOP what you're doing and research your load data! Please don't load any more of that until you figure it out. I would trash that brass immediately.

Flash

 

[popper]

Anneal the brass & get rid of the Lee collet die, unless you want to. It's an AR-10. Use CCI primers.