Which Shotgun for Home Defense?

[newguy4104]

When in doubt, improvise...

About 12 years back I responded to a 911 call of which the woman on the line was claiming someone was trying to break into their home. The husband was at the door yelling back at the guy kicking at the door, advising him to leave as they were armed. During this the intruder was ranting that he was going to kill him and his family (all of this was loud enough to be heard by the Dispatcher). The intruder made his way to the side door of the house at the same time the husband had locked his wife and two small children in their bedroom and retrieved his .357 magnum. The intruder then kicked in the side door and entered the house, charging the man. He unloaded the revolver into the heavily drug induced individual hitting him three times, the dropping shot shattered his femur. Out of ammo and the intruder still crawing towards him, the husband retrieved his shotgun to end the confrontation. Unfortunately he either forgot to reload or he didnt keep it loaded.....so he proceeded to beat the guy -(ultimately to death)-with it until L.E. arrived. The attacker was pronounced dead a short time later at the E.R. and the gentleman was not charged.

So I suppose I took away the concept that whether you use a rifle, handgun, shotgun or hammer....always have a back up plan.

 

[M. Sage]

Re: When in doubt, improvise...

About 12 years back I responded to a 911 call of which the woman on the line was claiming someone was trying to break into their home. The husband was at the door yelling back at the guy kicking at the door, advising him to leave as they were armed. During this the intruder was ranting that he was going to kill him and his family (all of this was loud enough to be heard by the Dispatcher). The intruder made his way to the side door of the house at the same time the husband had locked his wife and two small children in their bedroom and retrieved his .357 magnum. The intruder then kicked in the side door and entered the house, charging the man. He unloaded the revolver into the heavily drug induced individual hitting him three times, the dropping shot shattered his femur. Out of ammo and the intruder still crawing towards him, the husband retrieved his shotgun to end the confrontation. Unfortunately he either forgot to reload or he didnt keep it loaded.....so he proceeded to beat the guy -(ultimately to death)-with it until L.E. arrived. The attacker was pronounced dead a short time later at the E.R. and the gentleman was not charged.

So I suppose I took away the concept that whether you use a rifle, handgun, shotgun or hammer....always have a back up plan.

Woah, nice. That's how you take care of business.

 

[Wabbit69]

Ok, I'll bite. I'm an Austinite, as well, and do not share Satyrnine's low esteem of the local LEO's. Far as I can tell, state law is state law. I have no doubt whatsoever that if the unthinkable were to ever happen that the responding officers will place me in custody after they found one or more dead gang-bangers that might weigh an ounce or two more than when they entered my home (depending on how much bodily fluids they leaked before their brains stopped functioning). That's OK! That's what theyr'e supposed to do! Matter of fact, it would be prudent for the LEO's to search my home to see if the gang bangers knew something about my house that they didn't know.
Having said that, between pistol, rifle, and shotgun, they all have their pros and cons. Everybody's situation is different, and I believe that Sage's comment about the training and mindset is more important than the hardware. (I don't claim to have the training by the way, I'm a newbie with a whole lot to learn).
So, here's what I do: 1): Deter the two legged varmints from wanting to get in in the first place. 2) Make it physically challenging for them to get in if that fails. Most dirt-bags don't want to work, otherwise they would have jobs. They'll most likely give up before they succeed. Also, if they need to work at it, the extra time and noise might allow me to position myself in a much better tactical situation. 3) I've thought through a couple of scenarios and have come up with two main tactics, depending on the reaction time (whether or not they've gained access to the home): If they're already in the home, we shelter-in-place in the bedroom. With the bedroom door open, I have a clear line of fire down the only hallway that they can use to get to any of the bedrooms. Ideally there will be a 20ga shotgun loded with BUCKSHOT waiting for the BG to walk into a well aimed COM shot. However, the .40S&W P99 on the nightstand might just be all that I have time to grab. Either way, there will be no "stop, I'm armed" warning message, no racking of the slide, no quarter given. I have mentally prepared myself to determine that the threshold of my exterior doors is where the "line-in-the-sand" is drawn, and where it becomes a life-or-death situation. Tough shit for the bad-guy. If APD has a problem with that, we'll deal with it in court. The second scenario is if I can respond before they gain access to the house. I have a spot in my living room that I have some decent concealement (not cover) and have a good field of fire to all three entry doors of my home. Again, I'm leaning toward the shotgun due to it's ability to end a fight with fewer WELL AIMED shots, but realistically I'll probably have the pistol due to time and maneuverablity constraints. Again, the threshold is the "line-in-the-sand" and I will be praying with all my might that APD responsds to the 9-1-1 call before the dimwit crosses it. However, I will NOT give away my position and issue a warning or turn on a light or laser or anything like that. I refuse to give away any tactical advantage that I may have in a possible life-or-death encounter!
I'll be looking a window-entry scenarios over the next couple of months. By the way, It's just my wife and I, so very few potential hostage situations (although I have thought about it) and I've thorougly studied all the back-stops between me and all of my neighbors. And I really need some training. without it, I'll admit that surviving any of the above scenario's is, at best, about a 50-50.

 

[Rangerscott]

I'm an oddball guy. I got me an Escort MP 12ga(pump) w/ pistol grip. Love the thing. Holds 5+1 and you can get an extension tube. I recently add the semi-auto version and will be testing it soon I hope.

HATSAN ARMS COMPANY


Looks like they've got some newer models.

HATSAN ARMS COMPANY

 

[M. Sage]

Ok, I'll bite. I'm an Austinite, as well, and do not share Satyrnine's low esteem of the local LEO's. Far as I can tell, state law is state law. I have no doubt whatsoever that if the unthinkable were to ever happen that the responding officers will place me in custody after they found one or more dead gang-bangers that might weigh an ounce or two more than when they entered my home (depending on how much bodily fluids they leaked before their brains stopped functioning). That's OK! That's what theyr'e supposed to do! Matter of fact, it would be prudent for the LEO's to search my home to see if the gang bangers knew something about my house that they didn't know.
Having said that, between pistol, rifle, and shotgun, they all have their pros and cons. Everybody's situation is different, and I believe that Sage's comment about the training and mindset is more important than the hardware. (I don't claim to have the training by the way, I'm a newbie with a whole lot to learn).
So, here's what I do: 1): Deter the two legged varmints from wanting to get in in the first place. 2) Make it physically challenging for them to get in if that fails. Most dirt-bags don't want to work, otherwise they would have jobs. They'll most likely give up before they succeed. Also, if they need to work at it, the extra time and noise might allow me to position myself in a much better tactical situation. 3) I've thought through a couple of scenarios and have come up with two main tactics, depending on the reaction time (whether or not they've gained access to the home): If they're already in the home, we shelter-in-place in the bedroom. With the bedroom door open, I have a clear line of fire down the only hallway that they can use to get to any of the bedrooms. Ideally there will be a 20ga shotgun loded with BUCKSHOT waiting for the BG to walk into a well aimed COM shot. However, the .40S&W P99 on the nightstand might just be all that I have time to grab. Either way, there will be no "stop, I'm armed" warning message, no racking of the slide, no quarter given. I have mentally prepared myself to determine that the threshold of my exterior doors is where the "line-in-the-sand" is drawn, and where it becomes a life-or-death situation. Tough shit for the bad-guy. If APD has a problem with that, we'll deal with it in court. The second scenario is if I can respond before they gain access to the house. I have a spot in my living room that I have some decent concealement (not cover) and have a good field of fire to all three entry doors of my home. Again, I'm leaning toward the shotgun due to it's ability to end a fight with fewer WELL AIMED shots, but realistically I'll probably have the pistol due to time and maneuverablity constraints. Again, the threshold is the "line-in-the-sand" and I will be praying with all my might that APD responsds to the 9-1-1 call before the dimwit crosses it. However, I will NOT give away my position and issue a warning or turn on a light or laser or anything like that. I refuse to give away any tactical advantage that I may have in a possible life-or-death encounter!
I'll be looking a window-entry scenarios over the next couple of months. By the way, It's just my wife and I, so very few potential hostage situations (although I have thought about it) and I've thorougly studied all the back-stops between me and all of my neighbors. And I really need some training. without it, I'll admit that surviving any of the above scenario's is, at best, about a 50-50.

Sounds like you've put a lot more thought into it than the vast majority of people out there.

FWIW, check into Dillo Dynamics; they're local to you and I know they'll teach you right.

 

[A.Texas.Yankee]

Interesting that there seems to be a consensus against shotguns. I would take the train whatever you shoot, but don't discredit the shotty. It actually is easier to use under stress than a pistol, but don't take my word for it. Do some Internet research and look for stuff by Massad Ayoob. He IS a reputable source and probably the best modern self defense resource.

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[M. Sage]

Interesting that there seems to be a consensus against shotguns. I would take the train whatever you shoot, but don't discredit the shotty. It actually is easier to use under stress than a pistol, but don't take my word for it. Do some Internet research and look for stuff by Massad Ayoob. He IS a reputable source and probably the best modern self defense resource.

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It's easier to use, but harder to maneuver with. I'm pretty firmly against shotguns for home defense, because I think the niche they fill is better filled by a carbine, but I will admit that the damage they do is devastating.

The only good things pistols have going for them are that they're easy to carry and keep at hand, and moving in tight spaces. Other than that, handguns suck pretty hard compared to any long gun in a defensive caliber - less damage, less precision, harder to use especially under stress, etc.

The high points of a shotgun are very good damage (with buckshot and slugs), and price.

Damage from a .223, .308 or 7.62x39mm rifle rates between shotguns and handguns (but close to the shotgun side), with lower recoil, superior precision, easier handling and use, and unbeatable capacity unless you can get your hands on a belt-fed.

I don't totally discount shotguns. I just think that there are better tools available.

If my AK fails when I pick it up (yeah, I couldn't type that without smirking), I would pick up a shotgun before a pistol because my strategy is to hold and defend. If I had a reason to go chasing after trouble, I'd probably go pistol first just to make it easier to move around corners with less chance of someone taking my gun away.

I'll use whatever's nearby, no doubt about that. If we meet up at a TGT event, feel free to ask me about the time a friend and I went into his house with the alarm going off, planning on clearing it with our pocket knives. But if I get the chance to plan ahead, I'm going to put a tool that fits my intended use where I can get it.

 

[M. Sage]

Just wanted to add:

There's something to be said for a gun like my SLP that can punch 90 .32" holes in under 3 seconds. The problem is that that's only ten pulls of the trigger...

 

[scap99]

One word. Three letters.

UZI.

 

[M. Sage]

One word. Three letters.

UZI.

I like AUG better.

 

[scap99]

Same concept. Except 556 is loud.

 

[Wabbit69]

It's easier to use, but harder to maneuver with. I'm pretty firmly against shotguns for home defense, because I think the niche they fill is better filled by a carbine, but I will admit that the damage they do is devastating.

The only good things pistols have going for them are that they're easy to carry and keep at hand, and moving in tight spaces. Other than that, handguns suck pretty hard compared to any long gun in a defensive caliber - less damage, less precision, harder to use especially under stress, etc.

The high points of a shotgun are very good damage (with buckshot and slugs), and price.

Damage from a .223, .308 or 7.62x39mm rifle rates between shotguns and handguns (but close to the shotgun side), with lower recoil, superior precision, easier handling and use, and unbeatable capacity unless you can get your hands on a belt-fed.

I don't totally discount shotguns. I just think that there are better tools available.

If my AK fails when I pick it up (yeah, I couldn't type that without smirking), I would pick up a shotgun before a pistol because my strategy is to hold and defend. If I had a reason to go chasing after trouble, I'd probably go pistol first just to make it easier to move around corners with less chance of someone taking my gun away.

I'll use whatever's nearby, no doubt about that. If we meet up at a TGT event, feel free to ask me about the time a friend and I went into his house with the alarm going off, planning on clearing it with our pocket knives. But if I get the chance to plan ahead, I'm going to put a tool that fits my intended use where I can get it.

Man, I think you hit the nail right on the head! I'll speak from my own experience (or lack thereof). When we think about defense, we want to be able to employ something that we're already familiar with. Let's face it, the smoothbore boom-stick has been keeping food on the table for a lot of people for about 600 years. Outside of the feeding mechanism, it hasn't changed much since.
The biggest reason that I purchased a shotgun instead of an AR was because of it's perceived simplicity. I'm ex-Navy and don't have much training with them. The shotgun was much less intimidating in terms of the number knobs like charging handles, bolt catches, magazine releases, forward-assists, etc.
As much as I like the shotgun for it's simplicity and it's up-close effectiveness, I can't ignore the fact that the military prefers the rifle carbine. After all, the military is simply dealing with a slightly different breed of two legged varmint than we civilians do. The tool that works well dealing with "Brown-Bearded-Jihadists" in an urban setting will probably be the best tool for the "Bandana'd Pants-Dragger" breed of varmint.

 

[A.Texas.Yankee]

Even the military is changing their tactics as urban warfare becomes a primary battlefield. You see a lot more shotguns deployed. You guys are all correct, in a way. What I mean by that is you are all speaking from your own lengthy and practiced experience with a firearm. Many, if not most, in an urban area are not nearly as familiar with a long gun, myself included as I don't own a rifle, YET. In a CQC situation, a rifle isn't much shorter, maybe a few inches or not. Depends on your stock mainly. Also, if you are like myself, you may have multiple family members who are likely going to be scattered in many emergency situations. The biggest thing I worry about is "what could be behind the bad guy(s)?" Or apartments? Rifle can put more innocent people at risk. A rifle may be preferred by a proficient owner, but it's physics with a shotty. It's a large spread, more damage (if it all hits you're getting knocked by 8-9 .32 bullets rather than one rifle caliber), less likelihood of over penetration, and easier to hit what you're aiming at. We're not talking end of the world scenarios, but 1 shotty with 4 rounds is more lethal for a person with the least amount of training.

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[Mexican_Hippie]

Gotta love the internet. The "shotgun for home defense" debate is like asking what caliber is "best".

I can guarantee solid hits with a shotgun or a rifle are gonna end about the same...dead bad guys. How they get dead is your preference.

 

[M. Sage]

Even the military is changing their tactics as urban warfare becomes a primary battlefield. You see a lot more shotguns deployed. You guys are all correct, in a way. What I mean by that is you are all speaking from your own lengthy and practiced experience with a firearm. Many, if not most, in an urban area are not nearly as familiar with a long gun, myself included as I don't own a rifle, YET. In a CQC situation, a rifle isn't much shorter, maybe a few inches or not. Depends on your stock mainly. Also, if you are like myself, you may have multiple family members who are likely going to be scattered in many emergency situations. The biggest thing I worry about is "what could be behind the bad guy(s)?" Or apartments? Rifle can put more innocent people at risk. A rifle may be preferred by a proficient owner, but it's physics with a shotty. It's a large spread, more damage (if it all hits you're getting knocked by 8-9 .32 bullets rather than one rifle caliber), less likelihood of over penetration, and easier to hit what you're aiming at. We're not talking end of the world scenarios, but 1 shotty with 4 rounds is more lethal for a person with the least amount of training.

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Turns out shotguns are more likely to over-penetrate. Good defensive ammo in a 5.56 is going to tumble and break apart when it hits solid objects. I've actually seen one sheet of cardboard upset .223 bullets (one target in front of another, rear target had a keyhole in it). Yes, it'll still go through walls and be lethal, but there's nothing that I KNOW will be effective that won't. As far as military using shotguns, as far as I know, they're mostly used as lock busters. The military has flirted with combat shotguns for a long time now (WWI, WWII, Vietnam, current war) but they keep coming back to rifles, even for close quarters. Before anybody says it, it's not because of the laws of war. Shotguns are legal when you use plated shot.

If you may have family in the background of your shot, do you want multiple projectiles and a "large spread" (it isn't large, it's going to run about fist-sized)? You should know your pattern, but you won't have any control over it, where a rifle or pistol, the shot will go exactly where the gun is pointing. The fact that the pattern isn't significantly big at indoor-type distances means that it's not easier to score a hit compared to a rifle. You still have to aim, and you better do it well. One of the reasons I'm actually not a fan of shotguns is because of multiple projectiles, and you don't have any control over them. You have a decent idea where they're going, but nowhere near the guarantee you get with a rifle or pistol. Sure, you could use slugs, but then you've got a really crappy rifle.

More damage? Eh, as noted above it's more or less a wash between an actual rifle caliber (not a 9mm or .45 carbine, or something in .30 Carbine) and shotgun in that department. The shotgun is going to do a little more, but reading about this stuff I'm of the opinion that it's diminishing returns.

Look, if you're worried about a bullet going clean through a bad guy, run .223 with an OTM bullet designed for defensive use. They get good penetration, but will break apart, doing a ton of damage and reducing lethality if pieces do actually exit.

 

[itchin]

We keep 2 shotguns out of the safe loaded for hd. One is on my wife's side of the bed, it is a mossberg 500 bantam youth 20 guage loaded with #2 buck. And I keep a mossberg 500 12 guage loaded with 00 buck. My ar15s, are too expensive to keep out of the safe. We do practice with the shotguns. My wife is like Steven Segull with her youth model. When we lived out in the country I kept an ak out with a 30 round mag.

 

[P64]

I would say any over and under will be fool proof, but mine is a semi auto Benelli !

 

[Wabbit69]

Sounds like you've put a lot more thought into it than the vast majority of people out there.

FWIW, check into Dillo Dynamics; they're local to you and I know they'll teach you right.

Thanks for the push. I've been sitting on the fence too long. Just signed up for his Firearms Safety and Basic Defensive Handgun in May. Hopefully, I'll get to some more advanced training before the end of the year. I hear they have some pretty good courses down in San Antonio, too.

 

[M. Sage]

Thanks for the push. I've been sitting on the fence too long. Just signed up for his Firearms Safety and Basic Defensive Handgun in May. Hopefully, I'll get to some more advanced training before the end of the year. I hear they have some pretty good courses down in San Antonio, too.

I've met Joseph Bell from Tactical Immersion, and he really seems to have it together, too. Couldn't dissuade you from either company, it's just that the Dillo crew is closer to you.

 

[A.Texas.Yankee]

Turns out shotguns are more likely to over-penetrate. Good defensive ammo in a 5.56 is going to tumble and break apart when it hits solid objects. I've actually seen one sheet of cardboard upset .223 bullets (one target in front of another, rear target had a keyhole in it). Yes, it'll still go through walls and be lethal, but there's nothing that I KNOW will be effective that won't. As far as military using shotguns, as far as I know, they're mostly used as lock busters. The military has flirted with combat shotguns for a long time now (WWI, WWII, Vietnam, current war) but they keep coming back to rifles, even for close quarters. Before anybody says it, it's not because of the laws of war. Shotguns are legal when you use plated shot.

If you may have family in the background of your shot, do you want multiple projectiles and a "large spread" (it isn't large, it's going to run about fist-sized)? You should know your pattern, but you won't have any control over it, where a rifle or pistol, the shot will go exactly where the gun is pointing. The fact that the pattern isn't significantly big at indoor-type distances means that it's not easier to score a hit compared to a rifle. You still have to aim, and you better do it well. One of the reasons I'm actually not a fan of shotguns is because of multiple projectiles, and you don't have any control over them. You have a decent idea where they're going, but nowhere near the guarantee you get with a rifle or pistol. Sure, you could use slugs, but then you've got a really crappy rifle.

More damage? Eh, as noted above it's more or less a wash between an actual rifle caliber (not a 9mm or .45 carbine, or something in .30 Carbine) and shotgun in that department. The shotgun is going to do a little more, but reading about this stuff I'm of the opinion that it's diminishing returns.

Look, if you're worried about a bullet going clean through a bad guy, run .223 with an OTM bullet designed for defensive use. They get good penetration, but will break apart, doing a ton of damage and reducing lethality if pieces do actually exit.

From real word research, not by me, it shows shotguns way more devastating and less likely to go through a person with enough energy to keep killing. Granted slug or buck is still going through drywall with ease, but a rifle round may not expand enough at close range to stay inside it's intended recipient. There is more mass weight on target from a shotgun than any rifle. If we were all marksman, then in high stress situations it wouldn't matter what we use would it? A well placed pistol caliber still stops the heart, so in that theory a .22LR works. While a shotty still has to be aimed, a "fist" sized spread (although it will spread greater than that quickly) is more likely to hit it's intended target than a single round less than a quarter inch across. Guys that are trained by the best are trained by people like Massad Ayoob and he recommends that you use a shotty and train with it. We can agree that no matter what you use, practice is key. This is a pretty good article.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm


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