Better off to carry with none in the chamber than not at all?

[SARGE67]

I guess carrying without one in the chamber but with a fully loaded magazine inserted (or a cylinder with 5 loaded instead of six) is better than not carrying at all but the only way you'd catch me doing that is if I was dead and if I carried that way chances are that is how I'd wind up if I got into a self defense situation.

Glenn, carrying w/o one in chamber is what I prefer, all because of safety. Is my paranoia going back a long time ago. I realize should a situation ever occur that those extra seconds to "rack and load" could mean a difference, that I'm willing to take that chance.

 

[Sasquatch]

Good read. I found this interesting:

From concealment, sure but 1.2 seconds from an open carry holster? I can do sub-second draws from a level three duty holster - probably not what the Israelis are carrying. Unchambered carry is a relic from the days of single action pistols without decockers and poorly trained draftees.

 

[Lead Belly]

Unchambered carry is a relic from the days of single action pistols without decockers and poorly trained draftees.

What does a decocker have to do with condition 1 carry?

 

[leVieux]

I guess carrying without one in the chamber but with a fully loaded magazine inserted (or a cylinder with 5 loaded instead of six) is better than not carrying at all but the only way you'd catch me doing that is if I was dead and if I carried that way chances are that is how I'd wind up if I got into a self defense situation.

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In the past, there was a very valid reason for carrying revolvers with an empty cylinder “up”, and it did not delay first or subsequent shots being fired.

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[leVieux]

I figured the legal definition would differ from accepted definition.

Sounds like even pulling your coat back like in Justified would be enough to trigger charges.

Heck, I bet if you reached-over to the glove box and did a fake slide rack motion on a bic pen it'd be enough in these days.

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BINGO !

But WHY, Mr. Lead Belly ?

We all know why, don’t we ?

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[benenglish]

In the past, there was a very valid reason for carrying revolvers with an empty cylinder “up”, and it did not delay first ... shots being fired.

Was going to post this. In those cases, there's no difference in first-shot speed. None. At all.

 

[Glenn B]

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In the past, there was a very valid reason for carrying revolvers with an empty cylinder “up”, and it did not delay first or subsequent shots being fired.

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The past is not now. In these modern times, I carry revolvers that allow one to fully load them without concern of an unintentional discharge due to the hammer striking the firing pin without the trigger being pulled. I do not carry old style revolvers without a safety feature that prevents unintentional discharges due to oldtime design flaws like lack of a transfer bar or hammer block.

 

[A1Oni]

people who dont carry with one in the pipe have the rest of their lives to rack that slide.

 

[leVieux]

The past is not now. I do not carry old style single action revolvers without a safety feature that prevents unintentional discharges due to oldtime design flaws like lack of a transfer bar or hammer block.

I had two older double-action Colts w/ same problem.

I was replying to a prior post.

My Python has a nice transfer bar, as do all our S&W’s currently.

 

[leVieux]

​

It doesn't have to be in hand and waved around to be a crime. It just has to be displayed to intimidate.

18 US Code Part 924​

(4) For purposes of this subsection, the term “brandish” means, with respect to a firearm, to display all or part of the firearm, or otherwise make the presence of the firearm known to another person, in order to intimidate that person, regardless of whether the firearm is directly visible to that person.

Texas Penal Code Sec 42.01

“Disorderly Conduct” includes the offense of displaying a firearm in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm. This offense is a Class C misdemeanor. Additionally, if the act of brandishing a weapon escalates and leads to a more serious threat, assault charges or other offenses may be applicable.

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We coud thank our lawmakers for this new definition ?

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[Sasquatch]

What does a decocker have to do with condition 1 carry?

Poorly trained draftees that did not have the time needed to become more than proficient with their pistols and trused enough to carry a pistol with a chambered round, safety on as the 1911 was intended is where the notion of unloaded, hammer down carry came from. Even today the much more well trained volunteer forces we have now don't spend nearly enough time training with their weapons, especially pistols except for those in the infantry or other combat arms roles.

The practice of unloaded, hammer down carry stuck around despite the military switching from single action pistols to a double action pistol with a decocker - decockers are undeniably a safer way of lowering a hammer on a live round than thumbing the hammer as required on a single action pistol, or a double action without a decocker (such as the CZ-75's original variant) probably because no one still trusts Private Snuffy not to shoot himself or someone else accidentally - very few military personnel carry hot in non-combat roles - the exception being the Air Force SP's last I knew - who not only carry hot, but they're issued JHP ammunition when engaging in law enforcement roles instead of ball ammo. I haven't heard of Army or Marine MP's adopting that practice yet, nor have I heard anything about the Navy's Masters-at-Arms / Shore Patrol (whatever they're called these days) transitioning to chambered round carry as a standard.

I can't say why Israel adopted empty-chamber carry as their standard, but its likely because that's how the US and other militaries did it before Israel was even an official nation and their military members would've likely been trained by the US, British, or Canadian forces in their early days. They also were originally carrying single action pistols - AFAIK - before they went to 9mm Glocks, they'd been carrying Hi Powers in 9mm.

Most of the people I've talked to who are just average joe citizens who carry an empty chamber on a semi auto do so either "because the military does it that way" or because they're afraid of their own gun and don't trust themselves to carry hot. More training and a good holster goes a long way to dispelling those fears. Others have said its because they're around small children and they're afraid the child will somehow get hold of their guns and will shoot themselves or someone else. All I can say there again - proper holsters will prevent that, as will good firearms storage practices. Don't leave guns in reach of children, teach the kids old enough to understand NOT to touch a gun unless an adult says its OK and supervises them, and teach them how to safely handle a firearm and that again does a lot more to minimize the chances of someone getting hurt than relying on an empty chamber.

I've been around a lot of young children while carrying a pistol, none has ever tried grabbing my gun. Its never unintentionally come out of its holster when kids were present, and the style of holsters I use don't allow for little fingers, elbows, knees or toes to inadvertently cause the gun to go off in the holster.

If you need the gun *right now* but it's unloaded, its like trying to put the condom on after you've already shot your shot, or putting your seat belt on as you're being hit by a drunk driver. Probably not going to work out well in the end. If someone wants to carry an unloaded gun its their decision, but it may not be the best decision.

 

[seeker_two]

Israel adopted Condition Three carry because, in their early wars, they were using a hodgepodge of pistols.....1911s, P38s, BHPs, etc. To make training simpler, Condition Three was taught. It persists even to this day.....

 

[SARGE67]

I obviously got spooked on gun safety at age 18 in USMC and Vietnam. I'd never held a gun until the M-14 in boot camp 1967. Did ok on the range but when got to Nam they gave me a very unfamiliar M-16 instead of M-14. I figured out how to fire the thing at their version of a range and just a few minutes to fire some shots then off we went on the convoy to Con Thien. You put the rounds in this mag, this mag goes in here, here's the full auto switch, the bayonet goes here, down here is the compartment for cleaning rod. The entire thing was a piece of plastic (as you all know by now, but we went first)) but after a summer of carrying a heavy M-14 in boot camp, was a welcome in the jungle. The serious rumors of the failures of the M-16 at that time, the jams during firefights, spread like wildfire. We assembled our cleaning rods and taped them thinly alongside our barrels so could use to "unjam" a round. That and a few accidental discharges from other Marines and their .45 cals, usually late at night, instilled in me safety safety safety. I ain't gonna change....

 

[leVieux]

I obviously got spooked on gun safety at age 18 in USMC and Vietnam. I'd never held a gun until the M-14 in boot camp 1967. Did ok on the range but when got to Nam they gave me a very unfamiliar M-16 instead of M-14. I figured out how to fire the thing at their version of a range and just a few minutes to fire some shots then off we went on the convoy to Con Thien. You put the rounds in this mag, this mag goes in here, here's the full auto switch, the bayonet goes here, down here is the compartment for cleaning rod. The entire thing was a piece of plastic (as you all know by now, but we went first)) but after a summer of carrying a heavy M-14 in boot camp, was a welcome in the jungle. The serious rumors of the failures of the M-16 at that time, the jams during firefights, spread like wildfire. We assembled our cleaning rods and taped them thinly alongside our barrels so could use to "unjam" a round. That and a few accidental discharges from other Marines and their .45 cals, usually late at night, instilled in me safety safety safety. I ain't gonna change....

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Understood, and thank you for your service. We all recall those original despised “Stoners”.

But, given today’s urban conditions, many of us feel that it is relatively UNSAFE to EDC an empty chamber.

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[benenglish]

When you need a firearm and the chamber is empty, how many additional mistakes can you make?

 

[A1Oni]

When you need a firearm and the chamber is empty, how many additional mistakes can you make?

and when you carry with an empty chamber you are more likely to induce jams by short stroking the slide.

 

[zackmars]

It's dangerous to carry with one in the pipe, thats why i carry an open bolt sub gun

 

[A1Oni]

It's dangerous to carry with one in the pipe, thats why i carry an open bolt sub gun

now we are cooking with gas.

 

[leVieux]

It's dangerous to carry with one in the pipe, thats why i carry an open bolt sub gun

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Now, that IS funny !

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[SIG_Fiend]

I just want to put a few things in perspective. Almost all modern firearms in the past 50-70 years have had some form of a hammer block or firing pin safety. There are a few exceptions of course, like series 70 1911's. Certain semi autos like the Walther P38 and PP have had some form of firing pin safety/hammer block feature since the 1920's and 30's.

These safety features in revolvers can be traced back as far as the late 1800's. By the early 1900's, roughly 100 years ago, both Colt and S&W already began adopting some form of hammer block/rebound features. Iver Johnson had a trigger safety tab (like a Glock) as early as the 1890's.

Bottom line, a majority of modern guns most might carry are generally mechanically safe. The only concerns left are level of training and confidence as well as quality of holster. There are two solutions: 1) train more and gain more confidence 2) buy better quality holsters.

Nowadays, quality holsters can be had for fairly cheap as the supply has far outrun demand and the market is flooded with options. I'd say for as little as ~$20-30, if you're very picky about what you choose in that price range. So price isn't a factor, merely choice and due diligence to look out for certain features that make for a safe and robust holster design (e.g. trigger guard fully covered, rigid design that will resist deformation whether leather or kydex, robust belt loops or clips that won't inadvertently come loose, etc).

Also, on the annoying subject of Israeli carry being some sort of modern justification. On the list of world class shooters, both competition and military, what countries are represented most prominently? It ain't Israel. That's a clue. Focus on mimicking what the best do.