At what point do you draw your pistol

[chris211]

I keep seeing use of the law by stating how the law directly allows you to use force or show the use of force if you are in the imediate threat of bodliy harm. The law does state that, but the law also states that you can not be in provocation in any manor what so ever with the person. If you for any reason progressed the agression, you are on the wrong side of the law when you draw your weapon.

 

[M. Sage]

Yeah, that sounds like a place you might want to move from. =D

Kind of makes me think though, fear for your life can start even before you are actually even confronted. You, for example, were already in fear for you life to the point you were carrying a loaded gun in your grocery bag from your environment. Sounds to me like if someone started approaching you or started a fist fight, you would be almost forced to pull your pistol out and according to some on here..you'd be in the wrong.

Variables. If you're in a situation where you're in a parking lot, two guys are focused on you and moving your way, and one breaks away and starts moving to cut you off? I'd might not draw down, but if I've got a gun it's probably coming out of the holster discreetly.

Again, drawing isn't always displaying. Step behind something and get the gun out discreetly if things look like they're going to go bad. If you do point a gun at someone, it can't just be "I was scared". It has to be a legitimate fear.

Yes, but it needs to be a legitimate self defense. The situation outlined by the OP is sketchy at best.


Words of wisdom. That was the whole point of my admittedly long winded thread.

Thanks for the compliment.

My point was that saying or otherwise acting like you have a gun isn't brandishing. Neither is an accidental display like printing.

 

[coboblack]

I look forward to it being over because you keep contradicting yourself.

In the single post I've quoted here, in one place you say you are looking for a specific law, or limit of the law - and in another place you say you "would like to have a discussion, which includes a back-n-forth conversation".

Yeah, part of the discussion would be the discussion of the specific law that you think backs up your reasoning,
Back: You state you shouldn't be able to pull out a pistol for said reason.
Forth: I say the law says other wise, I quote the law which backs up my claims and asked you to quote the laws that lead you to believe yours.
Back: <this is where you chime in>

Sounds like a back n forth conversation to me

In a back and forth conversation, people express informed opinions - which I have done. This falls in line with your original intent, before you began intermixing a desire for dialog with a quest for case-law.

My original intent states the question of whether or not it is Legal to do it. Determining whether or not is legal is based on your interpretation of the law. Your interpretation of the law should drive your opinion on the choices you make regarding the question. Ergo it is completely relevant for me to ask for the specific law that motivates your opinions in a back-n-forth discussion. Nothing about it is contradictive.

 

[coboblack]

I keep seeing use of the law by stating how the law directly allows you to use force or show the use of force if you are in the imediate threat of bodliy harm. The law does state that, but the law also states that you can not be in provocation in any manor what so ever with the person. If you for any reason progressed the agression, you are on the wrong side of the law when you draw your weapon.

I agree with that. Does that mean the progression of the verbal conflict or does it mean the progression of the physical conflict? Or both? What I mean is, if a guy cusses you out with a "**** you, watch out you idiot" because you accidentally do something, is you responding with a "**** you man, it was an accident" considered progressing the aggression? Especially if that "**** you man, it was an accident" is what sets him off to come punch you? (He started it, but you helped it along with your response whos the one responsible for the provocation? )

My point is, is there levels of progression inside the verbal confrontation and then new beginnings and ends to a physical altercation..or by law, is it all considered the same thing? I can see where a "**** you man, it was an accident" isn't the smartest most mature thing to say, but its the other person who is provoking the aggression if he takes the conflict from verbal to physical by trying to assault you.

If at this point you realize that is becoming physical and you didn't intent for that to happen, are fearful and want to avoid it. If you draw your pistol defensively... does the provocation start with the person who began the assault, does it start with the gun owners first "confrontational response" or is it the initial provocation from the guy who initially started the verbal confrontation?

 

[coboblack]

Variables. If you're in a situation where you're in a parking lot, two guys are focused on you and moving your way, and one breaks away and starts moving to cut you off? I'd might not draw down, but if I've got a gun it's probably coming out of the holster discreetly.

Again, drawing isn't always displaying. Step behind something and get the gun out discreetly if things look like they're going to go bad. If you do point a gun at someone, it can't just be "I was scared". It has to be a legitimate fear.

Makes sense, thanks.

My point was that saying or otherwise acting like you have a gun isn't brandishing. Neither is an accidental display like printing.

This brings up another question I wondered. (separate from this) if you have a pistol in your holster in the back of your pants and you bend over and when you stand back up, your shirt hangs infront of it and you don't notice. Can you get in trouble for an accident like this or something similar?

 

[chris211]

I agree with that. Does that mean the progression of the verbal conflict or does it mean the progression of the physical conflict? Or both? What I mean is, if a guy cusses you out with a "**** you, watch out you idiot" because you accidentally do something, is you responding with a "**** you man, it was an accident" considered progressing the aggression? Especially if that "**** you man, it was an accident" is what sets him off to come punch you? (He started it, but you helped it along with your response whos the one responsible for the provocation? )

My point is, is there levels of progression inside the verbal confrontation and then new beginnings and ends to a physical altercation..or by law, is it all considered the same thing? I can see where a "**** you man, it was an accident" isn't the smartest most mature thing to say, but its the other person who is provoking the aggression if he takes the conflict from verbal to physical by trying to assault you.

If at this point you realize that is becoming physical and you didn't intent for that to happen, are fearful and want to avoid it. If you draw your pistol defensively... does the provocation start with the person who began the assault, does it start with the gun owners first "confrontational response" or is it the initial provocation from the guy who initially started the verbal confrontation?

From my understanding of it, once you are allowed to hold a CHL, you are expected by your peers, who will also be your jurours, to be the mature one. It's not always the extact law, it's what the jury concludes.

"**** you, watch out you idiot" Walk off, it's not a threat to your life.

"**** you man, it was an accident" You are treading on thin Ice now... you have escalated the situation.

Remember, a CHL is not a coupon to be a badass.

If you could not physically whip that guys ass before, you can not do it now, just because you have a chl.

 

[coboblack]

From my understanding of it, once you are allowed to hold a CHL, you are expected by your peers, who will also be your jurours, to be the mature one. It not always the extact law, it's what the jury concludes.

"**** you, watch out you idiot" Walk off, it's not a threat to your life.

"**** you man, it was an accident" You are treading on thin Ice now... you have ecalated the situation.

Remember, a CHL is not a coupon to be a badass.

If you could not physically whip that guys ass before, you can not do it now, just because you have a chl.

Great answers

 

[chris211]

This brings up another question I wondered. (separate from this) if you have a pistol in your holster in the back of your pants and you bend over and when you stand back up, your shirt hangs infront of it and you don't notice. Can you get in trouble for an accident like this or something similar?

I worry about printing all the time..I have been told over and over that it's not going to get you tossed in jail, but ...I think that is up to the call of the police officer, if one is on site or is called on site.

 

[FlashBang]

Interesting discussion. I don't think you can arrive at a 100% conclusive answer by theorizing a possible scenario. No scenario is ever going to fit your theory exactly. The way I look at it is this: If you have to use even 1/1000 of a second to think "is this okay or not" it is not. Otherwise you would not have to think about it.

When would "I" personally draw a weapon? Within milliseconds after my butt puckers up, my heart beat increases above 90 bps, the hair on the back of my neck stands up, and I have made the decision that I am going to shoot the threat away. Other then that it stays where it is.

Whether your actions are legal or not is up to what you can convince a jury of.

 

[bagged02]

I would like to hear what the LEO on the boards would do in some of these scenerios.

 

[Skip]

I doubt the LEOS here, or too many others would want anything on the net that could be brought up in court later...

 

[ChunkyMonkey]

I doubt the LEOS here, or too many others would want anything on the net that could be brought up in court later...

Lol....some LEOs here have already mentioned things.....but we see where that ended.....okay, this LEO is back out...lol.....

 

[bagged02]

I doubt the LEOS here, or too many others would want anything on the net that could be brought up in court later...

I dont believe they would be liable or anything they say on the boards could be used against them. I am a nurse, If I tell you to take 800mg of ibuprophen and you mistakenly take 8000, I would not be liable. Or if you took 800 and something happened, I am still not your caregiver and internet is not the same as the nurse or LEO directly involved in any specific situation. Surprised that even came up.
Any CHunky, I wrote your name out then erased it in previous post..lol funny you responded.

 

[M. Sage]

Makes sense, thanks.This brings up another question I wondered. (separate from this) if you have a pistol in your holster in the back of your pants and you bend over and when you stand back up, your shirt hangs infront of it and you don't notice. Can you get in trouble for an accident like this or something similar?

Look through CHL law. Accidental display is not illegal. Has to be "intentional" or "reckless". On my phone, or I'd look for the statute for you.

 

[coboblack]

I dont believe they would be liable or anything they say on the boards could be used against them. I am a nurse, If I tell you to take 800mg of ibuprophen and you mistakenly take 8000, I would not be liable. Or if you took 800 and something happened, I am still not your caregiver and internet is not the same as the nurse or LEO directly involved in any specific situation. Surprised that even came up.
Any CHunky, I wrote your name out then erased it in previous post..lol funny you responded.

Hmmmm...I've seen medical boards and attorney where they use their actual names ALWAYS put disclaimers at the end of any advice they give anywhere. But maybe thats because they are using their actual names and not forum nicknames.

 

[coboblack]

Interesting discussion. I don't think you can arrive at a 100% conclusive answer by theorizing a possible scenario. No scenario is ever going to fit your theory exactly. The way I look at it is this: If you have to use even 1/1000 of a second to think "is this okay or not" it is not. Otherwise you would not have to think about it.

When would "I" personally draw a weapon? Within milliseconds after my butt puckers up, my heart beat increases above 90 bps, the hair on the back of my neck stands up, and I have made the decision that I am going to shoot the threat away. Other then that it stays where it is.

Whether your actions are legal or not is up to what you can convince a jury of.

My difficulties with a lot of the advice, is that its coming from a wide range of people. I think it is sound advice, but A lot of the "experts" here, are police officers, ex military, extremely proficient gun instructors or people with training in hand to hand combat. They are projecting their confidence in street altercations on to people who may be more uncomfortable with it.

A guy raising his hands to fight me isn't something new to me, I train for that 2 hours a day 2-5 times a week. My wife on the other hand, that's a different story. I know guys who become literally petrified just in the presence of certain people walking around them downtown. I know guys who have never been in a fight in there life and telling them to think clearly and have the confidence to let an altercation escalate all the way to the point that they are literally about to die seems far fetched.

I can't tell you how many stories I know of big huge guys, bouncers or even police officers getting in a scuffle with some one...and after the fight is over or help arrives, they find out those "Punches in his stomach" turned out to being stabs with a knife. I have a scar on my forehead and right eyebrow from a box cutter pulled on me in a fight, could of lost my eye.

Operating and thinking clearly under normal conditions is one thing, operating with fear and adrenaline's fight of flight flooding through your brain is another. Assuming the guy coming at you is someone unarmed you can handle is one thing, finding out while your beating him up or controlling him that you're getting stabbed is another. I think telling people to wait until its half a second from too late to pull your pistol is dangerous advice IMO.

Now, playing devils advocate to my own position....I also see a problem with a guy scared out of his mind about to shit his pants pulling his pistol and shooting someone WAAAY TOO quickly out of fear. But that's why I advocate the early draw (maybe not point) or hand on pistol and verbal threat of deadly force if necessary.

I think if you suspect something is up, your hand should go on your pistol...if a person starts invading yourspace...its time to tell him to back off while you start stepping back...if he continues after verbal commands like that...his intentions are clear and you should draw your pistol and tell him to back off or you will shoot if necessary. I can't think of any innocent reason a person would continue to aggressively walk towards you through all of those steps. And if he does, I think his intent is deadly. He probably plans on stabbing you or grabbing your gun from you.

As long as you can show that you weren't provoking the fight, it was about to happen and it didn't because of that draw...it seems justified IMO.

 

[FlashBang]

First off, no where did I say you had to wait until the point you are about to die. What I described to you was a few conditions that happen to your body that are responses to fear. You are going in circles with your own stance, opinion and comments. I am former military with combat experience, a former LEO, have been shot, stabbed, blown up, run the heck over, had to shoot someone and would consider myself quasi proficient with most manner of firearms. Yet I have never had to sit around and try to run scenarios through my head over and over. When and if it happens and you are truly in fear for your life you will know it. If you have to think about whether you are in fear for your life or not, you probably are not. If you are someone who is continually getting in fights, in my opinion you are someone who does not need to be carrying a firearm to begin with. I, and most LEO's, have seen some people who get a CHL develop "tough guy" attitudes. A firearm is not your first line of defense it is your last, same for a LEO.

You have asked for opinions and thoughts, and then argued against not accepted what you have been given. I am in agreement with ChunkyMonkey, this is an effort in futility and not worth continuing. I am out of it.

 

[coboblack]

First off, no where did I say you had to wait until the point you are about to die. What I described to you was a few conditions that happen to your body that are responses to fear.

I don't think I should of quoted you when I said what I said. I initially was going to say something specific, (which is why I quoted you) but then spoke generally about it. (which is why I started off with "My difficulties with a lot of the advice, is that its coming from a wide range of people. I think it is sound advice, but...) As you can see, I was talking to everyone. Not only that, I said that it was good advice. I'm not sure why you took offense to that, but if the quote confused you and you thought I was speaking directly to you, I apologize. I know you didn't say wait until you are about to die, but people in the "Wide range of advice" i've heard here and other places...people have said that and that is what I was referring to.

You are going in circles with your own stance, opinion and comments.

Im just here talking brother, like I said...I don't carry a pistol on me. It stays in my car or my house. I'm not a closed minded person and I'm just having a discussion and trying to look at everything and hear peoples opinions.

I am former military with combat experience, a former LEO, have been shot, stabbed, blown up, run the heck over, had to shoot someone and would consider myself quasi proficient with most manner of firearms. Yet I have never had to sit around and try to run scenarios through my head over and over.

Thank you for your service, both in the military and as LEO. I'm not saying you should go over scenarios in your head. I don't teach or expect people to go over every single scenarios for different types of attacks or defenses in Jiu-Jitsu...but when we get on a discussion board, we talk about different scenario's for fun and gaining knowledge. Hearing how you react in a situation implants an idea in someones head that might no other wise be there. I think its fun to talk about different scenarios and I think its educational to learn about the law, its limits and what people think about the proper way to handle those situations are.

No need to get defensive or try to make a discussion an "Argument"....we aren't arguing.

When and if it happens and you are truly in fear for your life you will know it. If you have to think about whether you are in fear for your life or not, you probably are not.

Well, that was kind of the whole point of my last post. I said that "point" seems to differ from person to person. And the "point" that you SHOULD fear for your life, might come too late. (E.g. not afraid for your life in a fight, then you realize you are getting stabbed by a hidden knife he had in his pocket) you probably should of feared for your life before the fist fight even started.

If you are someone who is continually getting in fights, in my opinion you are someone who does not need to be carrying a firearm to begin with.

I agree with this completely.

I, and most LEO's, have seen some people who get a CHL develop "tough guy" attitudes.

I can see this happening as well.

On a similar note, for me, just carrying it in my car has made me more cautious of my behavior. I pay attention to my speed more, I won't drink a beer if it is in my car and I'm going to travel with it and if I did carry it on me I would probably walk away from more confrontations having it on me, then I would if I didn't. Jiu-Jitus is already easily used to control a person without injuring them and I'd rather use that 99 out of 100 times that pull a pistol and draw on them. But thats not the point, the point is CAN you pull it.

I think a lot of you, including you gave great answers. Which was the point of my last post as well...I just think that different people have different points that makes their " butt puckers up, my heart beat increases above 90 bps, the hair on the back of my neck stands up". and I think your training, shrinks the gap between feeling comfortable and your butt puckering.

A firearm is not your first line of defense it is your last, same for a LEO.

Agree as well

You have asked for opinions and thoughts, and then argued against not accepted what you have been given.

I have considered and appreciated the things that most people have said. How come you consider any responses to what you say as "an argument"? Are all your conversations a one way street where you tell them something and they just shut up and listen? Usually the conversations I enjoy with people is when we bounce ideas and opinions off each other.

I am in agreement with ChunkyMonkey, this is an effort in futility and not worth continuing. I am out of it.

Kind of my point, you're here to argue a point where there is some "Winner" or something...I'm just here to discuss. I'm ok with you having your opinions and your personal facts and I'm ok with you telling your opinions of what I'm saying. If you think what I'm saying is wrong or dangerous..I'm open to hear why. I'm not close minded nor will I be offended. Relax brother, its just a thread on a forum =)

 

[bagged02]

Hmmmm...I've seen medical boards and attorney where they use their actual names ALWAYS put disclaimers at the end of any advice they give anywhere. But maybe thats because they are using their actual names and not forum nicknames.

Yes, you are talking about the ones where you ask the question and it wants you to pay a very small fee like 20 bucks or something. Like my dogs shaking violently, whats going on. Vet that is registered with a website to answer questions and has been screened would then answer the question and get his monies. Thats alittle different.

 

[coboblack]

Yes, you are talking about the ones where you ask the question and it wants you to pay a very small fee like 20 bucks or something. Like my dogs shaking violently, whats going on. Vet that is registered with a website to answer questions and has been screened would then answer the question and get his monies. Thats alittle different.

Well I've seen it on like Yahoo and other things that are free...but they might just be being careful. Lawyers and doctors probably get sued a lot and are probably extra cautious. I think you're right though, a LEO with a screen name giving his opinion here probably wouldn't be an issue.