Am I understanding this

[Shady]

I see your point thanks for clearing that up

It's not a false claim, or at least doesn't need to be. There are any number of things a cop can do that are legal and constitutional that still can violate dept policy. As a citizen you have the right to input on how depts are run. You can give that input about any issue you want and as long as you don't make false acusations why would it be an issue.

 

[HandgunHTR]

The video above explains Its all in how the law is worded why they cant ask for a DL but can ask for you carry permit.

I understand that. My point was that the DL law wasn't always written that way, was it? If it wasn't, then it was changed to what it currently reads due to concerned citizens getting the law changed. I see the same thing needing to happen here.

 

[leVieux]

One could get a clear plastic "I D Holder" for the CHL to pin on one's shirt or jacket, for all the World to see.

 

[ZX9RCAM]

One could get a clear plastic "I D Holder" for the CHL to pin on one's shirt or jacket, for all the World to see.

Just get a "CHL" badge...

 

[nonameisgood]

One could get a clear plastic "I D Holder" for the CHL to pin on one's shirt or jacket, for all the World to see.

I think there was some discussion in the legislature of requiring this sort of thing. I did also see a holster with a visible ID card holder built into it. I can see it now, "I wasn't grabbing my gun, I was trying to get my ID", assuming one was still able to talk after that.


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[rlw454]

if an officer wants to see my id for any reason i will show him to argue will just make some people scared if they see a weapon

 

[txinvestigator]

They can ask but we can decline until we know why they are asking.


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An officer is under no obligation to convince YOU that his PC is solid, or why he asks to see your license to carry. Your simple possession is enough

 

[nonameisgood]

Maybe not, but an officer is also free to ask me about my day or the train schedule and I am under no obligation to provide an answer. In order to compel me to act (as in to show him my license), s/he would need to let me know it was an official request rather than just casual conversation. In OC states, people often ask me about my gun or a license, and I would think some officers might strike up a conversation just because of what I am carrying.
In a car, the lights in my rear view mirror make that clear. When stopping someone who walks by on the sidewalk it is not so cut and dried. I'm not suggesting that one act obtuse, just make sure you know who is asking and why. After all, if you dig around in your wallet, purse, or pocket, and the officer sees other evidence, it becomes admissible. What if you accidentally forgot to bring the CHL or DL? What if you didn't realize it had expired? Volunteering these things could be trouble.


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[Charlie]

An officer is under no obligation to convince YOU that his PC is solid, or why he asks to see your license to carry. Your simple possession is enough

This ^^^^ One can either cooperate or not (either way don't start no chit!). Civility is the way to go for both parties.

 

[txinvestigator]

Maybe not, but an officer is also free to ask me about my day or the train schedule and I am under no obligation to provide an answer. In order to compel me to act (as in to show him my license), s/he would need to let me know it was an official request rather than just casual conversation. In OC states, people often ask me about my gun or a license, and I would think some officers might strike up a conversation just because of what I am carrying.
In a car, the lights in my rear view mirror make that clear. When stopping someone who walks by on the sidewalk it is not so cut and dried. I'm not suggesting that one act obtuse, just make sure you know who is asking and why. After all, if you dig around in your wallet, purse, or pocket, and the officer sees other evidence, it becomes admissible. What if you accidentally forgot to bring the CHL or DL? What if you didn't realize it had expired? Volunteering these things could be trouble.


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If an officer asks for your LTC, it is an official request. Refuse and get a shiny new set of bracelets. He is under no obligation to tell you why.

As a side note, I see you as one of those guys who argues with a street sign and takes the wrong road....

 

[Charlie]

If an officer asks for your LTC, it is an official request. Refuse and get a shiny new set of bracelets. He is under no obligation to tell you why.

As a side note, I see you as one of those guys who argues with a street sign and takes the wrong road....

Now that right there IS funny!

 

[nonameisgood]

If an officer asks for your LTC, it is an official request. Refuse and get a shiny new set of bracelets. He is under no obligation to tell you why.

As a side note, I see you as one of those guys who argues with a street sign and takes the wrong road....

So you say.
Not me. But I also am not one to simply believe that every officer is well-intentioned and knows what he or she is doing at all times. I am a libertarian who first and foremost believes in liberty and restraint of the government. The dialogue here is useful for us to delve into our own views and the views of others so we are informed and can have well thought out world views. As to the law, people do have their own views of it as well.


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[Charlie]

I think TI is just explaining what the law is at this point, not necessarily what people's personal beliefs are on what it should be. A lawful order from an officer is just that, an order. As to whether it is lawful or not will be decided at a later time by the DA, courts, etc. I'm not suggesting that all orders from LEO are lawful. Just my opinion.

 

[nonameisgood]

I think TI is just explaining what the law is at this point, not necessarily what people's personal beliefs are on what it should be. A lawful order from an officer is just that, an order. As to whether it is lawful or not will be decided at a later time by the DA, courts, etc. I'm not suggesting that all orders from LEO are lawful. Just my opinion.

And that is exactly the issue: is it an order or just a casual conversation?
On the flip side, if an officer asks me for ID for no particular reason when I am not carrying, I decline since I am under no obligation to provide ID.


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[Charlie]

And that is exactly the issue: is it an order or just a casual conversation?
On the flip side, if an officer asks me for ID for no particular reason when I am not carrying, I decline since I am under no obligation to provide ID.

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You may be in the wrong doing that. The officer may have a valid reason for asking you but is not necessarily going to articulate that reason to you right away. You may match the description of an individual that just committed a crime and the officer needs to know who you are without getting into a conversation. If the officer has stepped over the line with his request, you can then file a formal complaint with his department.

 

[SA_Steve]

....duplicate....

 

[SA_Steve]

You do not want to do anything to annoy a cop or worse, deal with lawyers and judges.
Life is too short for you to make a point no one cares about.

Dealing with overwhelming force/power...not me.

 

[nonameisgood]

That is one philosophy. It is really very easy to be civil but not necessarily compliant. Technically, I am obligated to identify myself only under limited circumstances and that is how it should be.


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[Shady]

Well you are in violation of the law if you are open carrying a modern pistol after the first. So ya when he asks you for your license it is not casual he is determining if you have a permit to let you to bypass the law.

I understand that no matter how its worded you are going to say well I can make my own rules and not tell him.

So it comes down to play stupid games win stupid prizes.

And that is exactly the issue: is it an order or just a casual conversation?
On the flip side, if an officer asks me for ID for no particular reason when I am not carrying, I decline since I am under no obligation to provide ID.


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[nonameisgood]

Well you are in violation of the law if you are open carrying a modern pistol after the first. So ya when he asks you for your license it is not casual he is determining if you have a permit to let you to bypass the law.

I understand that no matter how its worded you are going to say well I can make my own rules and not tell him.

So it comes down to play stupid games win stupid prizes.

I am not saying it is wise to be confrontational about identifying oneself on the street. I AM saying that we need to not tolerate allowing law enforcement (writ large) to make up their own rules. [Philosophically, I'd rather let individuals (not LE) make reasonable readings of the law so long as their actions do not negatively impact others, but that is not the way many prosecutors and officers see it.]
And I think you and I will just disagree about the illegality of carrying a handgun. That is why we will need to fix the law next session. Unless someone volunteers to be the test case.


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