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    Deavis

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    I didn’t address the issue because there was no issue. If you pick your brass, primer, powder, and bullet, whether you use 5.56 or .223 data, you will end up at the same result when you finish working up your load. That’s why people don’t need to worry about different sets of data.

    No, you will not end up with the same results because the standards are different. I mean, a couple pounds is the same as a kilo, right? Sure, unless you have to carry that delta in weight all day long. Apparently you are not educated enough to understand the interaction between a change in chamber dimensions (which we haven't discussed) and what a difference in pressure transducer location, as well as MAP pressure, means for a cartridge. You are a troll who has read a few reloading manuals and think that it makes you an expert, but who am I to disagree? I apologize, let me try again and repost my response.

    You are the greatest ever Havok1, all bow before your knowledge! I'll take a cue from you and won't bother to post data or references because you are right! There is no difference between the two and you know more than anyone else! You'll certainly post the data from your pressure barrels to this forum to show that, right? The next post you make will have pressure traces showing that data from your 223 pressure barrel and 556 pressure barrel that are exactly the same when using identical powder, primer, brass, and projectile. Let's see those traces, post them here, please! I am wrong to question you and you next post will admonish me thoroughly with the traces showing how little I know.

    Don't forget to post your data from the SAAMI approved proof loads that you used to calibrate your test barrel (which brand is your test barrel, did you get a Wiseman barrel or did you slum it with a European knock off?) so we can verify it against our setups. You'll also include your NATO approved laboratory data for the 556 results (oh, who made your setup and did you get the solenoid operated firing pin option? If so, how did you get rid of the bounce in your transducer signal return and if so, did you choke it front or back, it's killing me), right? Oh wait, let me guess... you couldn't get proof loads from SAAMI (hard without being a member, they are suck hard on that, but you got a box or two somehow and followed the instructions to the letter to calibrate to the industry standard, right?) and you haven't bothered to certify for the NATO spec (you did pay the fees and followed all the protocols to be certified, don't we all?) so instead you have the calibration data from your transducer manufacturer (who made your transducers and you are willing to share their trace letter with us so we can verify them?) to proof your test barrels? Post those data, it's enough for us.

    Oh wait, let me guess... you can't but you have an oil calibration setup (baller option big daddy, you have some money to spend and bought it from... wait, whom did you buy your setup from? Did you spring for the automatic electric pump or did you go cheap on the hand option?) for your garage setup and you calibrate your transducers on your own because calibrating a transducer is child's play, and you are an expert on how to do that! Please, post your traces and let us all take a look at them. Oh great one, please, humor us serfs with your greatness! You have those data right? Your next post will include them, yes?

    Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot. Silly me. You spent thousands upon thousands of dollars building a ballistic testing laboratory in your garage and aren't willing to post those data here for us to see because it would undermine years of hard work developing those data for your own use. That's how you came to your brilliant conclusion that there is no difference between 223Rem and 5.56 data when properly developed and aren't willing to share with us. I understand, I do! It's hard to be in your situation, it really is. I mean, I am too, imagine that! How to balance sharing your knowledge with us, the commoners. It's tough. The best option is to write silly posts here and feel good about it. Thank you for your great and important contributions to the discussion addressing the OP's question! There is no difference (even though there is) between 5.56 and 223Rem and you won't talk about how or why, we should just trust you because you read a reloading manual once or twice and that makes you a subject matter expert! Gosh, why didn't I think of that?

    For the rest of you who care, here it is again. The general rule, from actual pressure data, is as follows for 223 (SAAMI) vs 5.56 (NATO). For the same exact bullet, the 5.56 data will normally show a higher powder charge and velocity due to the different MAP, transducer location, and chamber dimensions for the 5.56 specification. That is contingent upon the data coming from same laboratory and using pressure barrels setup for those two specifications. Unless you have access to THOSE data, which some of us do (imagine that, some of us do!), find the published load that works best for you and your rifle. Understand that there is a difference between 5.56 (NATO) and 223Rem (SAAMI) specifications and while it may not make a difference to your situation, there are differences between the two. Work up carefully, find an accurate load, and be content with it instead of chasing the greener grass from another spec.

    Back to the current post and ignoring the OP's question. Have no fear, Havok1 is going to post a bunch of pressure traces from his test barrels to prove me wrong in just a few minutes... Wait for it, it will be worth it. I'm giddy with anticipation to see those traces as I'm sure everyone else is as well.
    Texas SOT
     

    cycleguy2300

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    Honest wasn’t really about what the OP asked. Someone who is not a reloader may understand the differences between .223 and 5.56 but not understand why a company would not feel the need to publish two different sets of data.
    Always ready to deflect, excuse or obfuscate...

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    Havok1

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    No, you will not end up with the same results because the standards are different.
    You are ignoring the way reloading works. If I take two sets of data, one for 5.56 and and the other for .223, and use them to work up a ladder test for each one, at the end of each ladder test, I will end up settling on the same load. My gun will like whatever combination it likes and won’t known what set of data I pulled from. In fact, I could use different sets of .223 data as well and it still won’t really matter. when you work up a load for your rifle, you’re trying to find the best load, not the highest pressure.

    Nobody is saying the max pressures are the same. You’re arguing trying to prove something that nobody is saying is untrue.
     

    cycleguy2300

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    You are ignoring the way reloading works. If I take two sets of data, one for 5.56 and and the other for .223, and use them to work up a ladder test for each one, at the end of each ladder test, I will end up settling on the same load. My gun will like whatever combination it likes and won’t known what set of data I pulled from. In fact, I could use different sets of .223 data as well and it still won’t really matter. when you work up a load for your rifle, you’re trying to find the best load, not the highest pressure.

    Nobody is saying the max pressures are the same. You’re arguing trying to prove something that nobody is saying is untrue.

    Never reloaded even one round, yet I can see the value of knowing where max pressure is when working up a load...

    Seems like more excuses.

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    Havok1

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    Never reloaded even one round, yet I can see the value of knowing where max pressure is when working up a load...

    Seems like more excuses.

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    if it’s what makes you feel comfortable. Part of working up a load is checking pressure signs along the way.
     

    cycleguy2300

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    if it’s what makes you feel comfortable. Part of working up a load is checking pressure signs along the way.
    Well now that you mention it, knowing the boundaries and how close to it I am operating to them is comforting to me.

    I'm not surprised you are more of a wing-it guy...

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    Havok1

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    Well now that you mention it, knowing the boundaries and how close to it I am operating to them is comforting to me.

    I'm not surprised you are more of a wing-it guy...

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    And I’m not surprised that as usual you’re anrguing about something you know nothing about.
     

    CavCop

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    .233 vs 5.56mm is the chamber that is different.

    Loads will be based off the data/combination used to make that round.

    The cases might be annealed differently, or primer crimps different, based on the contract. But if reloading, the data/combination is what you make it to.

    Speer used to sell 5.56 Gold Dot marked ammo, now it’s all .223 Gold Dot as people got confused in the labeling of the same rounds and if set rifles could use them.

    NATO ammo can be loaded much different than standard ammo, and the data is not shared and changes based on many things, which governments and lot numbers track.
     

    @TX_1

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    There is no need for separate data. Just work up a load that works well in your rifle. Whether you call it 5.56 or .223 won’t matter.
    .223 ammo will shoot in any 5.56x45 NATO rifle.

    But 5.56x45 NATO ammo "might not" always work in a .223 rifle. The NATO round is made by many countries, there is some variability in specs in some NATO countries. There is normally a difference in the neck of the barrel on the NATO rounds.

    I reload. I never owned a .223 rifle until my recent build. Thought it too light a caliber for hunting. I built it with a 5.56x45 NATO barrel because I am shooting 70 grain Speer semi-spitzer SP bullets in it. The barrel is a heavy 18" with 8:1 twist rifling, it will stabilize almost all bullets that will operate in the AR-15 platform.

    My AR has a custom (by me) built maple stock. It looks and feels like a hunting rifle. probably a pound heavier then the normal AR-15.

    First time I shot it I was surprised how good it felt, bigger bullet and fairly hot load had noticeable recoil and report. Cycled well. I'm still refining the final load.
     

    mongoose

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    I haven’t seen the throat issue brought up ( might have missed it ). I have seen the results of a .223 not likeing .5.56 in an AR platform. Not pretty.
     

    Havok1

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    .223 ammo will shoot in any 5.56x45 NATO rifle.

    But 5.56x45 NATO ammo "might not" always work in a .223 rifle. The NATO round is made by many countries, there is some variability in specs in some NATO countries. There is normally a difference in the neck of the barrel on the NATO rounds.

    I reload. I never owned a .223 rifle until my recent build. Thought it too light a caliber for hunting. I built it with a 5.56x45 NATO barrel because I am shooting 70 grain Speer semi-spitzer SP bullets in it. The barrel is a heavy 18" with 8:1 twist rifling, it will stabilize almost all bullets that will operate in the AR-15 platform.

    My AR has a custom (by me) built maple stock. It looks and feels like a hunting rifle. probably a pound heavier then the normal AR-15.

    First time I shot it I was surprised how good it felt, bigger bullet and fairly hot load had noticeable recoil and report. Cycled well. I'm still refining the final load.

    There are several ways that chambers are cut for rifles designed to fire .223 and 5.56 ammo. As it pertains to this thread, what is relevant is that if you take .223 load data and work up your load, whether you do a ladder or OCW test, whether you pull 5.56 or .223 data out of a manual, in the end, you will end up with the same load being optimal for your rifle regardless of what data you used. The reason for this is because even though there is a higher max pressure for 5.56, there is overlap in the load data and working up loads with both .223 and 5.56 data would have you testing many of the exact same loads twice. Even though many people settle on a load that is over book max for .223, that has as much or more to do with published loads being watered down for liability purposes, or variations in brass as anything. if your goal is to seek out the best shooting load for your rifle, there is nothing to gain by publishing two sets of data for the same bullet, brass, powder, and primer.
     

    cycleguy2300

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    The max pressure on your tires is just there for liability too... if you want the best gas mileage you should go ahead and pump those babies up.

    Your post is dangerous for your own self and incredibly reckless to be recommendeding someone ignore the published data "drool because its just for liability and brass variations drool".

    Havok is a fool recommendeding others do foolish things which will lead to them getting hurt or killed because he imagines himself and expert and things can ignore data and win when playing the odds against physics...



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    benenglish

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    Deavis knows what he's talking about; the rest of us are amateurs compared to him. Besides his posts, there are a couple of other good, on-topic, helpful posts in this thread. There are also some that can be misinterpreted and some that can cause real-world, ka-boom-style problems.

    Worse, from my perspective, is that this thread is devolving into a cringe-inducing slap-fight. We sure as bloody hell don't need another of those.

    The topic has been covered. The thread is closed.
     
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