Worry about forgetting you are carrying?
- Thread starter Swedonia
- Start date
The #1 community for Gun Owners in Texas
Member Benefits:
Fewer Ads! Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership Discuss anti-gun legislation Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses Discover free outdoor shooting areas View up to date on firearm-related events Share photos & video with other members ...and so much more!
Member Benefits:
This happened to a friend of mine. He was in Galveston early running a couple of errands before going to the courthouse for afternoon jury duty. He carries a .38 derringer in a pocket holster with 2 extra rounds in his right back pocket. It doesn't show at all. Probably because he's not as fat as me. Anyway, he went into the courthouse (this was before 9/11) and there was an old deputy checking people. Friend walks through the metal detector, it goes off. Old deputy comes over and runs wand over him, it squeals over his right side. He pats himself down, doesn't feel anything, says he doesn't have anything. Deputy runs wand over his gun and it squeals. Friend still has no clue. Deputy runs wand over friend again and it squeals. He is completely dumbfounded. Deputy finally gives up and lets him go ahead. He gets into jury room, there are only a few people, so he goes into the back and sits down on what would be a church pew, all wood. As soon as his butt hits, he hears a clunk and instantly knows what it is. A guy about 10 feet away looks over at him. Friend has sense enough to grab his elbow on that side and quietly cuss like he hit it. Other guy goes back to his book. Friend moves over to a soft chair. After orientation they are given an hour to get lunch. friend goes to his truck and puts derringer under seat, all is well. Sometimes when they're so easy to carry it's easy to forget. Thankfully it didn't cost him a night in jail.
Don't take my word for it, read the law...
39 CFR § 232.1 - Conduct on postal property.
§ 232.1 Conduct on postal property.
(a) Applicability. This section applies to all real property under the charge and control of the Postal Service, to all tenant agencies, and to all persons entering in or on such property. This section shall be posted and kept posted at a conspicuous place on all such property. This section shall not apply to—
(i) Any portions of real property, owned or leased by the Postal Service, that are leased or subleased by the Postal Service to private tenants for their exclusive use;
(ii) With respect to sections 232.1(h)(1) and 232.1(o), sidewalks along the street frontage of postal property falling within the property lines of the Postal Service that are not physically distinguishable from adjacent municipal or other public sidewalks, and any paved areas adjacent to such sidewalks that are not physically distinguishable from such sidewalks.
(b) Inspection, recording presence.
(1) Purses, briefcases, and other containers brought into, while on, or being removed from the property are subject to inspection. However, items brought directly to a postal facility's customer mailing acceptance area and deposited in the mail are not subject to inspection, except as provided by section 274 of the Administrative Support Manual. A person arrested for violation of this section may be searched incident to that arrest.
(2) Vehicles and their contents brought into, while on, or being removed from restricted nonpublic areas are subject to inspection. A prominently displayed sign shall advise in advance that vehicles and their contents are subject to inspection when entering the restricted nonpublic area, while in the confines of the area, or when leaving the area. Persons entering these areas who object and refuse to consent to the inspection of the vehicle, its contents, or both, may be denied entry; after entering the area without objection, consent shall be implied. A full search of a person and any vehicle driven or occupied by the person may accompany an arrest.
(3) Except as otherwise ordered, properties must be closed to the public after normal business hours. Properties also may be closed to the public in emergency situations and at such other times as may be necessary for the orderly conduct of business. Admission to properties during periods when such properties are closed to the public may be limited to authorized individuals who may be required to sign the register and display identification documents when requested by security force personnel or other authorized individuals.
(c) Preservation of property. Improperly disposing of rubbish, spitting, creating any hazard to persons or things, throwing articles of any kind from a building, climbing upon the roof or any part of a building, or willfully destroying, damaging, or removing any property or any part thereof, is prohibited.
(d) Conformity with signs and directions. All persons in and on property shall comply with official signs of a prohibitory or directory nature, and with the directions of security force personnel or other authorized individuals.
(e) Disturbances. Disorderly conduct, or conduct which creates loud and unusual noise, or which impedes ingress to or egress from post offices, or otherwise obstructs the usual use of entrances, foyers, corridors, offices, elevators, stairways, and parking lots, or which otherwise tends to impede or disturb the public employees in the performance of their duties, or which otherwise impedes or disturbs the general public in transacting business or obtaining the services provided on property, is prohibited.
(f) Gambling. Participating in games for money or other personal property, the operation of gambling devices, the conduct of a lottery or pool, or the selling or purchasing of lottery tickets, is prohibited on postal premises. In accordance with 20 U.S.C. 107a(a)(5), this prohibition does not apply to the vending or exchange of State Lottery tickets at vending facilities operated by licensed blind persons where such lotteries are authorized by state law.
(g) Alcoholic beverages, drugs, and smoking.
(1) A person under the influence of an alcoholic beverage or any drug that has been defined as a “controlled substance” may not enter postal property or operate a motor vehicle on postal property. The possession, sale, or use of any “controlled substance” (except when permitted by law) or the sale or use of any alcoholic beverage (except as authorized by the Postmaster General or designee) on postal premises is prohibited. The term “controlled substance” is defined in section 802 of title 21 U.S.C.
(2) Smoking (defined as having a lighted cigar, cigarette, pipe, or other smoking material) is prohibited in all postal buildings and office space, including public lobbies.
(h) Soliciting, electioneering, collecting debts, vending, and advertising.
(1) Soliciting alms and contributions, campaigning for election to any public office, collecting private debts, soliciting and vending for commercial purposes (including, but not limited to, the vending of newspapers and other publications), displaying or distributing commercial advertising, collecting signatures on petitions, polls, or surveys (except as otherwise authorized by Postal Service regulations), are prohibited. These prohibitions do not apply to:
(i) Commercial or nonprofit activities performed under contract with the Postal Service or pursuant to the provisions of the Randolph-Sheppard Act;
(ii) Posting notices on bulletin boards as authorized in § 243.2(a) of this chapter;
(iii) The solicitation of Postal Service and other Federal military and civilian personnel for contributions by recognized agencies as authorized under Executive Order 12353, of March 23, 1982.
(2) Solicitations and other actions which are prohibited by paragraph (h)(1) of this section when conducted on Postal Service property should not be directed by mail or telephone to postal employees on Postal Service property. The Postal Service will not accept or distribute mail or accept telephone calls directed to its employees which are believed to be contrary to paragraph (h)(1) of this section.
(3) Leafleting, distributing literature, picketing, and demonstrating by members of the public are prohibited in lobbies and other interior areas of postal buildings open to the public. Public assembly and public address, except when conducted or sponsored by the Postal Service, are also prohibited in lobbies and other interior areas of postal building open to the public.
(4) Voter registration. Voter registration may be conducted on postal premises only with the approval of the postmaster or installation head provided that all of the following conditions are met:
(i) The registration must be conducted by government agencies or nonprofit civic leagues or organizations that operate for the promotion of social welfare but do not participate or intervene in any political campaign on behalf of any candidate or political party for any public office.
(ii) Absolutely no partisan or political literature may be available, displayed, or distributed. This includes photographs, cartoons, and other likenesses of elected officials and candidates for public office.
(iii) The registration is permitted only in those areas of the postal premises regularly open to the public.
(iv) The registration must not interfere with the conduct of postal business, postal customers, or postal operations.
(v) The organization conducting the voter registration must provide and be responsible for any equipment and supplies.
(vi) Contributions may not be solicited.
(vii) Access to the workroom floor is prohibited.
(viii) The registration activities are limited to an appropriate period before an election.
(5) Except as part of postal activities or activities associated with those permitted under paragraph (h)(4) of this section, no tables, chairs, freestanding signs or posters, structures, or furniture of any type may be placed in postal lobbies or on postal walkways, steps, plazas, lawns or landscaped areas, driveways, parking lots, or other exterior spaces.
(i) Photographs for news, advertising, or commercial purposes. Except as prohibited by official signs or the directions of security force personnel or other authorized personnel, or a Federal court order or rule, photographs for news purposes may be taken in entrances, lobbies, foyers, corridors, or auditoriums when used for public meetings. Other photographs may be taken only with the permission of the local postmaster or installation head.
(j) Dogs and other animals. Dogs and other animals, except those used to assist persons with disabilities, must not be brought upon postal property for other than official purposes.
(k) Vehicular and pedestrian traffic.
(1) Drivers of all vehicles in or on property shall be in possession of a current and valid state or territory issued driver's license and vehicle registration, and the vehicle shall display all current and valid tags and licenses required by the jurisdiction in which it is registered.
(2) Drivers who have had their privilege or license to drive suspended or revoked by any state or territory shall not drive any vehicle in or on property during such period of suspension or revocation.
(3) Drivers of all vehicles in or on property shall drive in a careful and safe manner at all times and shall comply with the signals and directions of security force personnel, other authorized individuals, and all posted traffic signs.
(4) The blocking of entrances, driveways, walks, loading platforms, or fire hydrants in or on property is prohibited.
(5) Parking without authority, parking in unauthorized locations or in locations reserved for other persons, or continuously in excess of 18 hours without permission, or contrary to the direction of posted signs is prohibited. This section may be supplemented by the postmaster or installation head from time to time by the issuance and posting of specific traffic directives as may be required. When so issued and posted such directives shall have the same force and effect as if made a part hereof.
(l) Weapons and explosives. Notwithstanding the provisions of any other law, rule or regulation, no person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes.
(m) Nondiscrimination. There must be no discrimination by segregation or otherwise against any person or persons because of race, color, religion, national origin, sex, or disability, in furnishing, or by refusing to furnish to such person or persons the use of any facility of a public nature, including all services, privileges, accommodations, and activities provided on postal property.
(n) Conduct with regard to meetings of the Board of Governors.
(1) Without the permission of the chairman no person may participate in, film, televise, or broadcast any portion of any meeting of the Board or any subdivision or committee of the Board. Any person may electronically record or photograph a meeting, as long as that action does not tend to impede or disturb the members of the Board in the performance of their duties, or members of the public while attempting to attend or observe a meeting.
(2) Disorderly conduct, or conduct which creates loud or unusual noise, obstructs the ordinary use of entrances, foyers, corridors, offices, meeting rooms, elevators, stairways, or parking lots, or otherwise tends to impede or disturb the members of the Board in the performance of their duties, or members of the public while attempting to attend or observe a meeting of the Board or of any subdivision, or committee of the Board, is prohibited.
(3) Any person who violates paragraph (n) (1) or (2) of this section may, in addition to being subject to the penalties prescribed in paragraph (p) of this section, be removed from and barred from reentering postal property during the meeting with respect to which the violation occurred.
(4) A copy of the rules of this section governing conduct on postal property, including the rules of this paragraph appropriately highlighted, shall be posted in prominent locations at the public entrances to postal property and outside the meeting room at any meeting of the Board of Governors or of any subdivision or committee of the Board.
(o) Depositing literature. Depositing or posting handbills, flyers, pamphlets, signs, poster, placards, or other literature, except official postal and other Governmental notices and announcements, on the grounds, walks, driveways, parking and maneuvering areas, exteriors of buildings and other structures, or on the floors, walls, stairs, racks, counters, desks, writing tables, window-ledges, or furnishings in interior public areas on postal premises, is prohibited. This prohibition does not apply to:
(1) Posting notices on bulletin boards as authorized in § 243.2(a) of this chapter;
(2) Interior space assigned to tenants for their exclusive use;
(3) Posting of notices by U.S. Government-related organizations, such as the Inaugural Committee as defined in 36 U.S.C. 501.
(p) Penalties and other law.
(1) Alleged violations of these rules and regulations are heard, and the penalties prescribed herein are imposed, either in a Federal district court or by a Federal magistrate in accordance with applicable court rules. Questions regarding such rules should be directed to the regional counsel for the region involved.
(2) Whoever shall be found guilty of violating the rules and regulations in this section while on property under the charge and control of the Postal Service is subject to a fine as provided in 18 U.S.C. 3571 or imprisonment of not more than 30 days, or both. Nothing contained in these rules and regulations shall be construed to abrogate any other Federal laws or regulations or any State and local laws and regulations applicable to any area in which the property is situated.
(q) Enforcement.
(1) Members of the U.S. Postal Service security force shall exercise the powers provided by 18 U.S.C. 3061(c)(2) and shall be responsible for enforcing the regulations in this section in a manner that will protect Postal Service property and persons thereon.
(2) Local postmasters and installation heads may, pursuant to 40 U.S.C. 1315(d)(3) and with the approval of the chief postal inspector or his designee, enter into agreements with State and local enforcement agencies to insure that these rules and regulations are enforced in a manner that will protect Postal Service property.
(3) Postal Inspectors, Office of Inspector General Criminal Investigators, and other persons designated by the Chief Postal Inspector may likewise enforce regulations in this section.
[37 FR 24346, Nov. 16, 1972]
(i) The registration must be conducted by government agencies or nonprofit civic leagues or organizations that operate for the promotion of social welfare but do not participate or intervene in any political campaign on behalf of any candidate or political party for any public office.
(ii) Absolutely no partisan or political literature may be available, displayed, or distributed. This includes photographs, cartoons, and other likenesses of elected officials and candidates for public office.
(iii) The registration is permitted only in those areas of the postal premises regularly open to the public.
(iv) The registration must not interfere with the conduct of postal business, postal customers, or postal operations.
(v) The organization conducting the voter registration must provide and be responsible for any equipment and supplies.
(vi) Contributions may not be solicited.
(vii) Access to the workroom floor is prohibited.
(viii) The registration activities are limited to an appropriate period before an election.
(5) Except as part of postal activities or activities associated with those permitted under paragraph (h)(4) of this section, no tables, chairs, freestanding signs or posters, structures, or furniture of any type may be placed in postal lobbies or on postal walkways, steps, plazas, lawns or landscaped areas, driveways, parking lots, or other exterior spaces.
(i) Photographs for news, advertising, or commercial purposes. Except as prohibited by official signs or the directions of security force personnel or other authorized personnel, or a Federal court order or rule, photographs for news purposes may be taken in entrances, lobbies, foyers, corridors, or auditoriums when used for public meetings. Other photographs may be taken only with the permission of the local postmaster or installation head.
(j) Dogs and other animals. Dogs and other animals, except those used to assist persons with disabilities, must not be brought upon postal property for other than official purposes.
(k) Vehicular and pedestrian traffic.
(1) Drivers of all vehicles in or on property shall be in possession of a current and valid state or territory issued driver's license and vehicle registration, and the vehicle shall display all current and valid tags and licenses required by the jurisdiction in which it is registered.
(2) Drivers who have had their privilege or license to drive suspended or revoked by any state or territory shall not drive any vehicle in or on property during such period of suspension or revocation.
(3) Drivers of all vehicles in or on property shall drive in a careful and safe manner at all times and shall comply with the signals and directions of security force personnel, other authorized individuals, and all posted traffic signs.
(4) The blocking of entrances, driveways, walks, loading platforms, or fire hydrants in or on property is prohibited.
(5) Parking without authority, parking in unauthorized locations or in locations reserved for other persons, or continuously in excess of 18 hours without permission, or contrary to the direction of posted signs is prohibited. This section may be supplemented by the postmaster or installation head from time to time by the issuance and posting of specific traffic directives as may be required. When so issued and posted such directives shall have the same force and effect as if made a part hereof.
(l) Weapons and explosives. Notwithstanding the provisions of any other law, rule or regulation, no person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes.
(m) Nondiscrimination. There must be no discrimination by segregation or otherwise against any person or persons because of race, color, religion, national origin, sex, or disability, in furnishing, or by refusing to furnish to such person or persons the use of any facility of a public nature, including all services, privileges, accommodations, and activities provided on postal property.
(n) Conduct with regard to meetings of the Board of Governors.
(1) Without the permission of the chairman no person may participate in, film, televise, or broadcast any portion of any meeting of the Board or any subdivision or committee of the Board. Any person may electronically record or photograph a meeting, as long as that action does not tend to impede or disturb the members of the Board in the performance of their duties, or members of the public while attempting to attend or observe a meeting.
(2) Disorderly conduct, or conduct which creates loud or unusual noise, obstructs the ordinary use of entrances, foyers, corridors, offices, meeting rooms, elevators, stairways, or parking lots, or otherwise tends to impede or disturb the members of the Board in the performance of their duties, or members of the public while attempting to attend or observe a meeting of the Board or of any subdivision, or committee of the Board, is prohibited.
(3) Any person who violates paragraph (n) (1) or (2) of this section may, in addition to being subject to the penalties prescribed in paragraph (p) of this section, be removed from and barred from reentering postal property during the meeting with respect to which the violation occurred.
(4) A copy of the rules of this section governing conduct on postal property, including the rules of this paragraph appropriately highlighted, shall be posted in prominent locations at the public entrances to postal property and outside the meeting room at any meeting of the Board of Governors or of any subdivision or committee of the Board.
(o) Depositing literature. Depositing or posting handbills, flyers, pamphlets, signs, poster, placards, or other literature, except official postal and other Governmental notices and announcements, on the grounds, walks, driveways, parking and maneuvering areas, exteriors of buildings and other structures, or on the floors, walls, stairs, racks, counters, desks, writing tables, window-ledges, or furnishings in interior public areas on postal premises, is prohibited. This prohibition does not apply to:
(1) Posting notices on bulletin boards as authorized in § 243.2(a) of this chapter;
(2) Interior space assigned to tenants for their exclusive use;
(3) Posting of notices by U.S. Government-related organizations, such as the Inaugural Committee as defined in 36 U.S.C. 501.
(p) Penalties and other law.
(1) Alleged violations of these rules and regulations are heard, and the penalties prescribed herein are imposed, either in a Federal district court or by a Federal magistrate in accordance with applicable court rules. Questions regarding such rules should be directed to the regional counsel for the region involved.
(2) Whoever shall be found guilty of violating the rules and regulations in this section while on property under the charge and control of the Postal Service is subject to a fine as provided in 18 U.S.C. 3571 or imprisonment of not more than 30 days, or both. Nothing contained in these rules and regulations shall be construed to abrogate any other Federal laws or regulations or any State and local laws and regulations applicable to any area in which the property is situated.
(q) Enforcement.
(1) Members of the U.S. Postal Service security force shall exercise the powers provided by 18 U.S.C. 3061(c)(2) and shall be responsible for enforcing the regulations in this section in a manner that will protect Postal Service property and persons thereon.
(2) Local postmasters and installation heads may, pursuant to 40 U.S.C. 1315(d)(3) and with the approval of the chief postal inspector or his designee, enter into agreements with State and local enforcement agencies to insure that these rules and regulations are enforced in a manner that will protect Postal Service property.
(3) Postal Inspectors, Office of Inspector General Criminal Investigators, and other persons designated by the Chief Postal Inspector may likewise enforce regulations in this section.
[37 FR 24346, Nov. 16, 1972]
Now tell me what criminal law you will be charged with under the CFR and what the penalty is. There is a generic federal infraction for the violating the reg you cited, as for illegally posting handbills. It is essentially the same as getting a speeding ticket in a national park. However if you enter the building and they are posted as most are, you will get charged with 18 USC 930 which is a federal misdemeanor
I hope after the stupidity of the brace ban and "assault weapons" bans gets smacked down by SCOTUS - we can see the overturning of other prohibitions, like the prohibition of carrying on federal property, especially places like the post office - and that "sensitive places" as a whole gets evicerated.
Its complete bullshit that you cannot carry in a school, a hospital, the post office, a nursing home, a court house, at a sporting event, etc.
Criminals will carry in all of those places if they wish.
As I've pointed out in my earlier post 39 C.F.R. § 232.1 is in the code of federal regulations and isn't in itself a criminal law. I went the trouble some years ago of looking up the enabling law for this regulation. Every regulation, to have the force of law, must have a statute passed by Congress, an "enabling" statute. So tracking down the penalty in the law that applied to violations of this section of the CFR, I found that possessing a weapon on postal "property" is a Federal infraction, similar to speeding in a federal jurisdiction. It used to have a fine of $50 and yes a possible maximum 30 day jail sentence, like many states have for similar infractions or low level misdemeanors. Recently .gov updated their fines for inflation and it could be now up to $1000, as theoretically could a speeding ticket. I looked hard and it seems there was one case of someone actually charged with this and they were a postal employee. Initially the US Attorney brought a charge under 18 USC 930 which is a federal misdemeanor with $50,000 max fine (inflation), but the defendant's lawyer pointed out the gun was not in a "facility" and the charge was changed to under 39 C.F.R. § 232.1. The employee was convicted, got the $50 fine apparently and no jail, but most importantly got fired despite the civil service protections afforded postal employees.
Another case I heard of but can't verify, is that a NASA contractor was charged under a similar regulation for having a gun in his vehicle on NASA property. Apparently, he was acquitted or charges dropped when his lawyer argued that there were no signs warning of such on the NASA property.
Bottom line to me...this is one of those "driving through a school zone in Oklahoma, with your gun in the car type situations. I just don't care and there aren't (yet) ATF agents in squad cars driving around school zones looking for probable cause. I even rip the tag off mattresses...
I go to my local post office and park about 5-6 times a year. I don't "remember" if I've ever had a gun in the car, I just know I didn't walk in with one.
Another case I heard of but can't verify, is that a NASA contractor was charged under a similar regulation for having a gun in his vehicle on NASA property. Apparently, he was acquitted or charges dropped when his lawyer argued that there were no signs warning of such on the NASA property.
Bottom line to me...this is one of those "driving through a school zone in Oklahoma, with your gun in the car type situations. I just don't care and there aren't (yet) ATF agents in squad cars driving around school zones looking for probable cause. I even rip the tag off mattresses...
I go to my local post office and park about 5-6 times a year. I don't "remember" if I've ever had a gun in the car, I just know I didn't walk in with one.
Don't underestimate the ability of the federal government to screw around with you over a speeding ticket.
When I was a Reserve Deputy and off duty in plain clothes, yes I was armed, I went in, did my business and left. I figured it wouldn't be a problem. esp. after a full time deputy told me he went in off duty and Postal Inspectors grabbed him. He resembled a crook they were looking for. He told them he was armed because the Sheriff requires him to be armed. When they figured out he wasn't the perp, they released him.
In 25 years of legal carrying concealed, I can honestly say I was cognizant enough to know where it was illegal to carry. There was one incident though that my wife saved my butt on. We were in Atlanta GA and had stood in line to go into the Coca-Cola Museum and were about 10 people from entering when my wife noticed they had metal detection and were wanding everyone. I had not noticed as I was talking to my BIL & SIL who had met us there. She tapped my concealed weapon to get my attention and pointed at the metal detectors and we abruptly left the line and returned to our rental car to lock my gun in the trunk. Upon returning and re-entering the line we saw that security had an individual surrounded and were wanding him. He was livid and calling every one of them vulgar names and stating that he had a Concealed Carry License and was allowed to carry his gun anywhere he wanted. There were large signs stating the opposite, which I had never seen. He was hauled off in cuffs and handed over to the local PD. Yes, I carry my commander sized 1911 IWB, in a custom holster and it is so comfortable that I forget it is there.
Did I forget to mention the guy in my story was a nudist?
seeker_two
My posts don't count....
So...he supports open carry?....
Axxe55
Retiretgtshit stirrer
open carry of something!not necessarily a gun though!
Good discussion all around. Has anyone come across a story of anyone being busted for carrying where the should not. The only ones I hear about is TSA finding someone's gun in bag during x-ray carry on. (Close call by me when I almost put the bag on the belt and then remembered and took it off)
Staff online
-
robertc1024Moderator
Members online
- GonzoLonzo
- ZX9RCAM
- tangoparson
- brashears9567
- Dingo
- General Zod
- BB76
- jmohme
- blueangel64
- no2gates
- Jacob85
- robertc1024
- Fishin4guns
- crystalphoto
- vmax
- LaVbRef
- Coop's Dad
- cycleguy2300
- Big Dipper
- Steve In Texas
- Big Green
- Mike_from_Texas
- ShootTheBreeze
- DenverGp
- Gordo
- Texasgordo
- myroverleaks
- Nick!
- Jhatt
- Johnny Diamond
- tinplas
- Hoji
- BuzzinSATX
- DoubleDuty
- lightflyer1
- Mescobarrpls
- glenbo
- recoveringyankee
- hornetguy
- Gulfpirate101
- kittyhawk
- toddnjoyce
- bigdhornfan
- fordw60s
- servis
- Cool 'Horn Luke
- Txdweeb
- JC1
- Txhighlander
- echo1
