Who’s Correct?

[benenglish]

scored higher when I wasn't under pressure, but I still passed well above what was needed.

Yeah, even the minor amount of pressure of shooting for score in front of someone can cause people to drop shots.

When my sister and I went to our first LTC class, she naturally fired a perfect score; I jerked one shot way low, costing me 2 points.

She has never let me forget it.

 

[seeker_two]

Step 1: Learn to hit what you aim at.

Step 2: Learn what to aim at.

If you can keep your shots within a 4" group at 10yds and less, then you can hit pretty much any vital spot on a perp. The rest is extraneous.....

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk

 

[Fishkiller]

I was told “This is not a firearms trading class. You have one chance to pass. Retakes will be scheduled at a later date”. I passed with almost perfect score. I agree the qualification is minimal. But then it is designed for most situations which are measured in feet and not yards

 

[BBL]

Yeah, even the minor amount of pressure of shooting for score in front of someone can cause people to drop shots.

When my sister and I went to our first LTC class, she naturally fired a perfect score; I jerked one shot way low, costing me 2 points.

She has never let me forget it.

Oh boy, that always hurts.
I am in the same boat. Took the class with my buddy and I pulled the trigger on one of the last shots at 15 yds. I pulled it left hard, all the way into the freaking 9 ring. I kept that target for a long time, reminding me of how badly I screwed up.
My buddy laughs at me frequently. Especially when we go practice at the range, he makes insensitive comments like "leave the 9 alone". It hurts my feelings. He is such an immature jerk. I need a waaahhhmbulance now.

 

[Glenn B]

I'm just saying to give a point to aim at. I wish I could hit the bullseye every time, but it's still satisfying if I come close. If you are just trying to hit within a big square, circle or oval without thinking of hitting center, chances of missing are heightened.

Your target in a shooting situation will be very unlikely to be wearing a bullseye or other point of aim on his or her shirt. In my experience, using a blank target is much better than using a bullseye - with novice handgun shooters. Folks are not trained, as far as I am aware, at least not professionally trained, to shoot at a big blank target without hitting center; they are of course told to shoot center mass and what they are told to aim at is what they see as center mass of that blank paper.

Ben's point I believe was that it is easier to hit the center of a blank target than it is to hit a bullseye, at least for many if not all novice shooters. I have used that method, with problematic shooters, since 1987 while I was an instructor on my job. I previously was taught to shoot by that method while in the Border Patrol Academy in 1979 because I could barely hit paper when shooting at the bullseye even at 10 yards or maybe it was 7; but when shooting at the blank side I could not believe I was the person who shot that well. My improvement was stellar.

The blank side method works and works well with problematic shooters who usually are squeezing too hard to hold the weapon and/or trying to hard to hold it on the center of a bullseye without it moving. Take away the bullseye, by using the other side of the paper, and suddenly there is no specific point on which to worry about holding the sights. Then tell the shooter to shoot at the center of the blank side. That can change a shooter's ability to hit center mass drastically, much more so than merely telling a shooter - who is having problems while shooting at a bullseye, that it is normal for a handgun muzzle and the shooter's sight picture, to be moving continuously and then expecting them to get it.

 

[easy rider]

Your target in a shooting situation will be very unlikely to be wearing a bullseye or other point of aim on his or her shirt. In my experience, using a blank target is much better than using a bullseye - with novice handgun shooters. Folks are not trained, as far as I am aware, at least not professionally trained, to shoot at a big blank target without hitting center; they are of course told to shoot center mass and what they are told to aim at is what they see as center mass of that blank paper.

Ben's point I believe was that it is easier to hit the center of a blank target than it is to hit a bullseye, at least for many if not all novice shooters. I have used that method, with problematic shooters, since 1987 while I was an instructor on my job. I previously was taught to shoot by that method while in the Border Patrol Academy in 1979 because I could barely hit paper when shooting at the bullseye even at 10 yards or maybe it was 7; but when shooting at the blank side I could not believe I was the person who shot that well. My improvement was stellar.

The blank side method works and works well with problematic shooters who usually are squeezing too hard to hold the weapon and/or trying to hard to hold it on the center of a bullseye without it moving. Take away the bullseye, by using the other side of the paper, and suddenly there is no specific point on which to worry about holding the sights. Then tell the shooter to shoot at the center of the blank side. That can change a shooter's ability to hit center mass drastically, much more so than merely telling a shooter - who is having problems while shooting at a bullseye, that it is normal for a handgun muzzle and the shooter's sight picture, to be moving continuously and then expecting them to get it.

In training a bullseye in the center can give the uninitiated a focal point and reference for hitting center. When I said aim small, miss small, that bullseye can help develop that sense. Just having a blank target could make it to where one may just want to try to hit within that area, not aiming small. Certainly as one gets better at sensing center, one can use a blank target.

 

[benenglish]

I was resisting addressing this topic because I don't want to create hard feelings. But if it's going to be repeatedly discussed, I guess I should comment.

Believe it or not, this is actually the short version of why I use blank targets for novices. To wit -

The brain already knows where the center is. Always. In every situation. Our brains are hard-wired to seek concentricity/balance/symmetry. That's why, in art, asymmetrical things grab our attention; they initially strike us as being wrong/off-balance. We also use our vernier vision to identify straight lines; the brain likes those, too, though in a slightly different way.

Teaching a novice should recognize and capitalize on these pre-existing human factors.

I start novices by just sitting down and talking. At some point, I'll put a blank target between us and tell the student that we're going to do an exercise. Usually I ask the student to stand though not always. I give the student a sharpie and tell them "I'm going to ask you to do something, to write on the paper before you. When I tell you what to do, I'll pause then say 'Go'!' Don't think. Don't take more than 2 seconds. Just go with your first instinct."

Then I say "When I say 'Go!', put a dot in the center of the paper." Then I immediately issue the command.

If the student pauses, I'll urgently say "Don't think. Just do it!"

After the student puts the dot on the paper, I take back the sharpie, cap it, and take out my pocket knife. I poke a hole in the target at the spot the student marked. Then I turn the target over.

The hole is always in the 10 ring. It's usually in the X ring or at least touching it.

The lesson? Everyone automatically knows where center is.

Later, on the range, I tell the novice to "Point the pistol at the middle of the paper." I've already explained to them what a sight picture is and how the natural tendency of the eyes and mind to see symmetry will make them want to put the front sight exactly in the middle of the rear sight notch. I've already explained how vernier vision will cause the eyes and mind to try to keep the top of the front sight level with the top of the rear sight. I make sure they know that precise sight alignment isn't a big deal for now; they should just do their best without stressing over it. After the demonstration with the sharpie and the back of the target, they'll trust me enough to accept that they can rely on their eyes and brains to try to seek symmetry and straight lines.

We've already gone over the basic trigger press during dry fire.

"Don't worry about being exact. You didn't have to think about it when you put that dot in the middle of the paper, did you? The same thing is going on here. We've talked about and I had you draw the way the sights should line up. You automatically know where the center is. Don't over-think it; just point everything at the middle."

I'll have them fire a shot at a time for 5 shots (where I can make corrections if there's something terribly wrong) then 5 shots at their own pace.

Assuming I'm teaching a truly new shooter, one who has yet to develop a flinch or other bad habits, and that we're using a pistol that doesn't scare them, most of the shots will be in the black when I retrieve the target and turn it around.

Frequently, they're all in the black, especially if I've lent them a good .22 target pistol and there's no one else on the range jarring them with loud noises.

The confidence they gain from that first 10 shots makes teaching them easy from there on. I don't stay on the blank target long, certainly not past the first session, but the die is cast with those first shots. They know they can do it. Once they're over that hump, the rest is downhill.

Notes about bullseyes -

• A dot in the middle of a blank page to use as an aiming point is common in NRA Basic Pistol classes.
  • I can understand its utility when you're teaching a whole class and don't have time to sit and talk with every student. The "dot in the middle" target is a compromise between the perceived need to give people an aiming point the the way a blank target removes all distractions. I don't work that way, though. I teach one-on-one, leading the student by the hand through working with, not against, the way their eyes and brains perceive the world. I fully recognize that's impossible in a multi-student classroom setting.
• A regular bullseye doesn't give people a place to aim; it slaps them in the face with the fact that they can't hold the pistol steady.
  • The bull admonishes them to try to correct every movement. By showing them the precise place where they are supposed to aim, it constantly screams to their brain "You idiot! You're not holding steady! Move the sights back into the right place! Now you're off again! Move 'em back! Again! Again! Again!" ad infinitum. It's an absolute confidence killer.
  • Using a bullseye and still making good hits requires a student to understand that they have a wobble zone and that visible wobble is something they need to ignore. For most shooters, that's an advanced topic that takes years to fully internalize. It's not good to force a novice to consciously deal with it the first time they shoot; most (basically, all) are incapable of doing that. It's far better to make the concept something they will easily understand because their first shots, on a blank target, showed them that wobble is no big deal long before the topic is ever explicitly discussed.
• A regular bullseye is directly antagonistic to the way the eye and brain want to work.
  • Whether you teach center hold, 6 o'clock hold, or sub six hold, the new shooter is forced to dispense with seeing concentricity between the sights and the target. Their brain doesn't want to do that yet tries to force itself to do so. That internal battle inevitably results in wider shot dispersion than would otherwise be the case.
  • In anticipation of objections, this is even true with center hold because the sights cover up too much of the bull, destroying the natural sense of centeredness. This can only be overcome by making the bull absolutely huge, as in Olympic Men's Rapid Fire. That is one funky target; the bullseye is so huge that the whole target is basically a sheet of black paper.
• A bullseye target is easiest to shoot with a red dot.
  • Red dot sights are perfect for bullseyes. There's a reason most NRA Precision Pistol shooters use red dots. However, for several reasons, I don't believe novices should be started with a red dot unless I know for ab-so-damn-lutely sure they will never need to shoot a firearm with iron sights. Iron sight skills transfer to the red dot; I'm not convinced they go the other way. But that's a topic all by itself.

 

[Darkpriest667]

I was resisting addressing this topic because I don't want to create hard feelings. But if it's going to be repeatedly discussed, I guess I should comment.

Believe it or not, this is actually the short version of why I use blank targets for novices. To wit -

The brain already knows where the center is. Always. In every situation. Our brains are hard-wired to seek concentricity/balance/symmetry. That's why, in art, asymmetrical things grab our attention; they initially strike us as being wrong/off-balance. We also use our vernier vision to identify straight lines; the brain likes those, too, though in a slightly different way.

Teaching a novice should recognize and capitalize on these pre-existing human factors.

I start novices by just sitting down and talking. At some point, I'll put a blank target between us and tell the student that we're going to do an exercise. Usually I ask the student to stand though not always. I give the student a sharpie and tell them "I'm going to ask you to do something, to write on the paper before you. When I tell you what to do, I'll pause then say 'Go'!' Don't think. Don't take more than 2 seconds. Just go with your first instinct."

Then I say "When I say 'Go!', put a dot in the center of the paper." Then I immediately issue the command.

If the student pauses, I'll urgently say "Don't think. Just do it!"

After the student puts the dot on the paper, I take back the sharpie, cap it, and take out my pocket knife. I poke a hole in the target at the spot the student marked. Then I turn the target over.

The hole is always in the 10 ring. It's usually in the X ring or at least touching it.

The lesson? Everyone automatically knows where center is.

Later, on the range, I tell the novice to "Point the pistol at the middle of the paper." I've already explained to them what a sight picture is and how the natural tendency of the eyes and mind to see symmetry will make them want to put the front sight exactly in the middle of the rear sight notch. I've already explained how vernier vision will cause the eyes and mind to try to keep the top of the front sight level with the top of the rear sight. I make sure they know that precise sight alignment isn't a big deal for now; they should just do their best without stressing over it. After the demonstration with the sharpie and the back of the target, they'll trust me enough to accept that they can rely on their eyes and brains to try to seek symmetry and straight lines.

We've already gone over the basic trigger press during dry fire.

"Don't worry about being exact. You didn't have to think about it when you put that dot in the middle of the paper, did you? The same thing is going on here. We've talked about and I had you draw the way the sights should line up. You automatically know where the center is. Don't over-think it; just point everything at the middle."

I'll have them fire a shot at a time for 5 shots (where I can make corrections if there's something terribly wrong) then 5 shots at their own pace.

Assuming I'm teaching a truly new shooter, one who has yet to develop a flinch or other bad habits, and that we're using a pistol that doesn't scare them, most of the shots will be in the black when I retrieve the target and turn it around.

Frequently, they're all in the black, especially if I've lent them a good .22 target pistol and there's no one else on the range jarring them with loud noises.

The confidence they gain from that first 10 shots makes teaching them easy from there on. I don't stay on the blank target long, certainly not past the first session, but the die is cast with those first shots. They know they can do it. Once they're over that hump, the rest is downhill.

Notes about bullseyes -

• A dot in the middle of a blank page to use as an aiming point is common in NRA Basic Pistol classes.
  • I can understand its utility when you're teaching a whole class and don't have time to sit and talk with every student. The "dot in the middle" target is a compromise between the perceived need to give people an aiming point the the way a blank target removes all distractions. I don't work that way, though. I teach one-on-one, leading the student by the hand through working with, not against, the way their eyes and brains perceive the world. I fully recognize that's impossible in a multi-student classroom setting.
• A regular bullseye doesn't give people a place to aim; it slaps them in the face with the fact that they can't hold the pistol steady.
  • The bull admonishes them to try to correct every movement. By showing them the precise place where they are supposed to aim, it constantly screams to their brain "You idiot! You're not holding steady! Move the sights back into the right place! Now you're off again! Move 'em back! Again! Again! Again!" ad infinitum. It's an absolute confidence killer.
  • Using a bullseye and still making good hits requires a student to understand that they have a wobble zone and that visible wobble is something they need to ignore. For most shooters, that's an advanced topic that takes years to fully internalize. It's not good to force a novice to consciously deal with it the first time they shoot; most (basically, all) are incapable of doing that. It's far better to make the concept something they will easily understand because their first shots, on a blank target, showed them that wobble is no big deal long before the topic is ever explicitly discussed.
• A regular bullseye is directly antagonistic to the way the eye and brain want to work.
  • Whether you teach center hold, 6 o'clock hold, or sub six hold, the new shooter is forced to dispense with seeing concentricity between the sights and the target. Their brain doesn't want to do that yet tries to force itself to do so. That internal battle inevitably results in wider shot dispersion than would otherwise be the case.
  • In anticipation of objections, this is even true with center hold because the sights cover up too much of the bull, destroying the natural sense of centeredness. This can only be overcome by making the bull absolutely huge, as in Olympic Men's Rapid Fire. That is one funky target; the bullseye is so huge that the whole target is basically a sheet of black paper.
• A bullseye target is easiest to shoot with a red dot.
  • Red dot sights are perfect for bullseyes. There's a reason most NRA Precision Pistol shooters use red dots. However, for several reasons, I don't believe novices should be started with a red dot unless I know for ab-so-damn-lutely sure they will never need to shoot a firearm with iron sights. Iron sight skills transfer to the red dot; I'm not convinced they go the other way. But that's a topic all by itself.

Prety much all this. I only care about bullseyes when I am shooting for accuracy with a rifle at 100 yards. Even then anything within 2 inches is fine for me..

For Combat shooting if you HIT the target they are going to be disabled and follow up shots will probably put them down if the initial shot doesnt. Center Mass is so that you can hit the CNS if you can.

 

[Ausländer]

The LTC course is just that - a class to see if you meet the State standard, so yes - teach the test. This is not a newbie class, this is not a tacti-cool class, this is not a precision shooting class. Apples v Oranges.

 

[BBL]

Frequently, they're all in the black, especially if I've lent them a good .22 target pistol and there's no one else on the range jarring them with loud noises.

The confidence they gain from that first 10 shots makes teaching them easy from there on.

I absolutely agree with starting on a small caliber, especially those that I suspect would flinch and push the muzzle down in recoil anticipation. I am a fan of "baby steps". One factor at a time. Recoil can be added after the student is confident that they can, in fact, hit the target and with satisfactory precision.
I usually explain that "recoil WILL happen, you cannot stop it, you cannot change it, you cannot compensate for it but know that recoil happens after the bullet leaves the muzzle so it does not affect the POI and thus you need not worry about it, let it happen, just grip the weapon tight ans safely but don't try to fight the recoil, it is part of the sport".

 

[seeker_two]

I absolutely agree with starting on a small caliber, especially those that I suspect would flinch and push the muzzle down in recoil anticipation. I am a fan of "baby steps". One factor at a time. Recoil can be added after the student is confident that they can, in fact, hit the target and with satisfactory precision.
I usually explain that "recoil WILL happen, you cannot stop it, you cannot change it, you cannot compensate for it but know that recoil happens after the bullet leaves the muzzle so it does not affect the POI and thus you need not worry about it, let it happen, just grip the weapon tight ans safely but don't try to fight the recoil, it is part of the sport".

However, you can mitigate recoil with your choice of pistol, ammo, and shooting style. Too many new shooters are starting with micro-9s and NATO ammo when they would be better suited with a good .22lr or a compact/service 9mm using 147gr ammo.

 

[kenboyles72]

From what I have been told by many instructors, as well as the Army, the use of a B-27 target or similar gets a shooter use to shooting at a human shaped target. You subconsciously learn where to aim at a torso to get most effective hits. It's just like getting ready for deer season and shooting deer shaped targets, it gets you conditioned to shoot at a specific area. If one only shoots at paper circles, trying to get the smallest group possible, then their brain is conditioned to find the center dot and sometimes confuses the shooter when actually trying to hit a human shaped target. Shooting at bullseye targets helps you refine your accuracy, B-27 targets refine how well you can put shots on your attacker.