Ukraine invasion

[General Zod]

People can't understand because you don't offer proof or answer questions.
I'm still waiting......

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See, when I shared a link to Naftali Benet refuting that he had said what Havok claims he said and what had initially been reported, and in fact that it was an inaccurate mistranslation, Havok ignored it, pretended Benet said the opposite, and now is claiming it wasn't Benet he was talking about in the first place.

However, I watched the entire relevant part of the interview including the part where Benet clarifies that his words were mistranslated, and that while the US State Department didn't have much optimism for the talks he tried to have, he still thought he could get somewhere. And then the first concrete evidence of Russian war crimes against the civilian population in Bucha came out, and Benet said that is what scuttled the talks.

But in Havok-land, everything he says is irrefutable truth, even when the person he is quoting comes out and says "that's not what my words were". How do you reason with that level of bullshit?

 

[Havok1]

except what your link said was the correct translation was the same as what I have said.

The good news though is that people can actually watch the interview for themselves. Your made up version of it doesn’t matter.

 

[Vaquero]

 

[jrbfishn]

we have discussed the bennet interview multiple times on here. Not too long ago, one of the people who is saying I’m wrong shared a link in an attempt to prove me wrong, that contained the dialogue showing that what I said was actually the correct translation of what was said. When I mentioned this, he kept demanding proof. How does that make sense? If someone either won’t read what they share, or doesn’t understand what they are reading, why would I bother going out of my way to find information for them? Plus, if people are smarter than me like they are saying, then they should have already seen the interview and don’t need a link.

Oh no. He did offer proof that his translation was correct and yours wrong, so offer more evidence that refutes his.
You also said that the failed negotiations were the fault of the U.S. AND that the U.S. is forcing both sides to not negotiate but when asked how by me, you keep skirting the issue and offer no evidence of it or how they are accomplishing that.

I'm STILL waiting......

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[Havok1]

Oh no. He did offer proof that his translation was correct and yours wrong, so offer more evidence that refutes his.
You also said that the failed negotiations were the fault of the U.S. AND that the U.S. is forcing both sides to not negotiate but when asked how by me, you keep skirting the issue and offer no evidence of it or how they are accomplishing that.

I'm STILL waiting......

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No, what he offered was a link that had the correct translation, which was the same as mine. It’s also the same as what has been reported around the world…

No, Elon, the U.S. Didn’t Scuttle a Ukraine Peace Deal - The Bulwark

Twitter contrarians—given the spotlight by Elon Musk—distort an interview by Israel’s ex-PM.

www.thebulwark.com

Here is the link. Notice that the disagreement is over comments that are different than what I said.

 

[jrbfishn]

And that link clearly states "the video was cut to construe the original statements".
That is not proof of anything. Not to mention how any is forcing both sides to not negotiate.

Still waiting.

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[Havok1]

And that link clearly states "the video was cut to construe the original statements".
That is not proof of anything. Not to mention how any is forcing both sides to not negotiate.

Still waiting.

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It’s clearly about the tweets, not the full length interview.

 

[glenbo]

This shit is getting old.

 

[jrbfishn]

It’s clearly about the tweets, not the full length interview.

What do tweets have to do with what he said or not? Do they just translate or get to decide what the words he uses mean? Or is it the interview is irrelevant, only the tweets that count as truth? Why show an interview at all? Just show the tweets. They are all the truth and proof we need, right? The edited, fake interview is just so the truthful tweets can be fabricated for us. Got it.

Bless your little heart. I bet you tweet, don't you?


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[cycleguy2300]

It’s clearly about the tweets, not the full length interview.

Can you do me a favor and sum up your position. Who said what and where they said it...

Originally I understood you to have stated Bennet said the negotiations were torpedoed by the USA. Is that still your position or is there someone else who said something to that effect?

I'd like to have a meaningful conversation about it, but when people won't share specifics like where the info was found (link or attributed quote) it's impossible to make informed decisions about veracity or context.

For example a few days ago you said Trump was against supplying Ukraine with weapons or something, how ever all I could find was Trump saying he would end the war in a day...

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[Havok1]

What do tweets have to do with what he said or not? Do they just translate or get to decide what the words he uses mean? Or is it the interview is irrelevant, only the tweets that count as truth? Why show an interview at all? Just show the tweets. They are all the truth and proof we need, right? The edited, fake interview is just so the truthful tweets can be fabricated for us. Got it.

Bless your little heart. I bet you tweet, don't you?


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The link is not saying the interview translation is wrong. It’s saying that what was said in the tweets was wrong. I’m not sure why you’re having difficulty understanding this.

 

[Havok1]

Can you do me a favor and sum up your position. Who said what and where they said it...

Originally I understood you to have stated Bennet said the negotiations were torpedoed by the USA. Is that still your position or is there someone else who said something to that effect?

I'd like to have a meaningful conversation about it, but when people won't share specifics like where the info was found (link or attributed quote) it's impossible to make informed decisions about veracity or context.

For example a few days ago you said Trump was against supplying Ukraine with weapons or something, how ever all I could find was Trump saying he would end the war in a day...

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Bennet said that the US blocked negotiations in the interview. The link that people people are trying to use to argue with me over is not disputing that he said that.

In the same town hall where he said he could end the war in a day, he was directly asked if he would keep sending weapons to ukraine, and he spoke out against it.

It’s difficult to have meaningful conversation, and a waste of time to post links when people keep arguing because they don’t understand the difference between a link that says the tweets are wrong vs the original interview was wrong.

 

[cycleguy2300]

Bennet said that the US blocked negotiations in the interview. The link that people people are trying to use to argue with me over is not disputing that he said that.

In the same town hall where he said he could end the war in a day, he was directly asked if he would keep sending weapons to ukraine, and he spoke out against it.

It’s difficult to have meaningful conversation, and a waste of time to post links when people keep arguing because they don’t understand the difference between a link that says the tweets are wrong vs the original interview was wrong.

The "Basically, yes... They blocked it, and I thought they were wrong." quote

Somewhere along the way it was left out he was talking about Germany and France too, not just the USA. But he was a fool if he though he could get either side to make any concessions or meaningfully talk and I doubt any western nation intentionally blocked negotiations. They supported Ukraine in not compromising and let be known (as it should have been) that they would supply as much of the arms and equipment needed to push russia out of their nation, but that is HARDLY blocking negotiations.

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[General Zod]

In case somebody didn't know, YouTube videos can be linked from a specific spot if someone wanted to actually offer proof of their gaslighting attempts, or to try to cherry pick a phrase of two they're building their whole empire of lies on. Tweets, also, can be linked and the great thing is, it shows the entire tweet and can be clicked on to see replies and such.

But...that person will never, ever, EVER link to any source to back up any of his bullshit, so I suppose this is just a random musing on the subject.

No link, no proof, nobody's going to believe you.

 

[General Zod]

No, what he offered was a link that had the correct translation, which was the same as mine. It’s also the same as what has been reported around the world…

No, Elon, the U.S. Didn’t Scuttle a Ukraine Peace Deal - The Bulwark

Twitter contrarians—given the spotlight by Elon Musk—distort an interview by Israel’s ex-PM.

www.thebulwark.com

Here is the link. Notice that the disagreement is over comments that are different than what I said.

Oh, wow, the heavens have opened up and Havok has shared an actual link to something. A link to a story that completely refutes his position...even though he insists it doesn't.

Gotta wonder about a mindset like that.

 

[Havok1]

The "Basically, yes... They blocked it, and I thought they were wrong." quote

Somewhere along the way it was left out he was talking about Germany and France too, not just the USA. But he was a fool if he though he could get either side to make any concessions or meaningfully talk and I doubt any western nation intentionally blocked negotiations. They supported Ukraine in not compromising and let be known (as it should have been) that they would supply as much of the arms and equipment needed to push russia out of their nation, but that is HARDLY blocking negotiations.

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Trying to reach an agreement to end the war costs basically nothing. It could just as easily be argued that it takes a fool to want to pour money into the war to ensure it continues on. Unless of course, it’s because they are getting kickbacks on it.

I’m sure Bennet has a better idea of how the negotiations were going than any of us.

Oh, wow, the heavens have opened up and Havok has shared an actual link to something. A link to a story that completely refutes his position...even though he insists it doesn't.

Gotta wonder about a mindset like that.

no it doesn’t. The link includes dialogue from his speech that is the same as what I have said all along. Your inability to understand what you’re reading is why I’m not going to go out of my way to find information for you.

 

[General Zod]

no it doesn’t. The link includes dialogue from his speech that is the same as what I have said all along. Your inability to understand what you’re reading is why I’m not going to go out of my way to find information for you.

Yes, it does. He explicity states that those were not his words, it was mistranslated, and what he actually said was that the US did not have much confidence in his efforts. He then states that it was the discovery of war crimes commited in Bucha that scuttled the talks.

If you were to watch the video I linked to when this whole discussion started and actually read the translation there, you'd see. Of if you actually read the article you linked to .But when you do you seem to be providing your own narrative instead of comprehending the information that's presented, which teaches you nothing.

 

[General Zod]

Havok, have you considered that there might be a reason nobody else can see or hear Benet saying the things you think he's saying? You know, on those occasions that you're not insisting that it's not Benet you've been talking about when you refer to him as "Benet"?

 

[glenbo]

I try, really try, to be patient. But this person is stretching my patience very thin.

 

[cycleguy2300]

Trying to reach an agreement to end the war costs basically nothing.

I have a serious question.

What agreement could have been reached?

What agreement would you have suggested or could you see being suggested?

Both sides were and are in STRONG political positions at their respective homes for the status quo. russia finds political advantage in trying to capture/destroy Ukriane while Ukriane finds political strength in pushing russia to pre-2014 internationally recognized borders, like 80% of Ukriane supports that at all costs...

Negotiations do have a cost. They can make you appear weak to your enemies and worse, to your friends and countrymen. Should we have negotiated with Japan after they took the Philippines, Wake and attacked Pearl Harbor? NO! And we shouldn't try to force others to negotiate when we, in a similar circumstance would not be willing to.

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