Lynx Defense

Storm Shelter design, Thinking Out Loud

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  • Curt 58

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    You have to decide where your comfort level is with the odds. An F4 or F5 and that shelter won't survive. Anything less and you will probably be fine. Odds of an F4 or F5 are pretty small. Just depends on how you want to play it. Weigh the cost versus a buried shelter.

    Yes, folks may know where to find you. But they may be out of town, injured or extremely busy. Give some thought to what you would do if the door was jammed. Don't count on any internet connections or anything requiring grid voltage. And your cell phone may not get much (if any) signal in there.

    Study the FEMA Link Sir! my construction plans, according to FEMA will be good for F5 Tornadoes.

    And door blockage may happen, that's why storm shelter door swing inside, not out.
    I have already covered the fact that we will have several radios and 4G. All powered by solar recharged batteries that should be good for a week even if we lose it's solar panels. (I am already running a 12 volt solar freezer by solar power exclusively with this system, so I've crossed that bridge already.) Plus I highly doubt all my family, friends and neighbors, plus the entire National Weather Service will be on vacation at the same time a tornado wipes out my home, and no one comes looking for survivors in the damage area.

    All of my neighbor, who have buried shelters, ALL have water issues in them. They are constantly having to replace sump pumps. Even my next door neighbors shelter in his closet, (a very large, and deep, one piece, fiberglass bathtub/ hot tub style in ground under a floor hatch) shelter fills with ground water on dry days. So where I live, underground is not a good option. Unless I want to deal with constant attention and diving into a half filled rancid pool of water. Your area is most likely different than mine! Consider storing your firearms in a damp cellar and get back to us on how that works for you!

    Like you said, my design works for us! And I have spelled our out to help for those who want to plan theirs with ideas.

    Anyone have any new products or ideas that might be useful in my situation?
    DK Firearms
     

    Lunyfringe

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    I went thru all the research, and with an established house there wasn't place to put an indoor shelter like you're proposing. We were in Colorado closing on our house there when the Canton Tornadoes April 28- May 1, 2017 hit... The EF4 in that outbreak ended as an EF3, practically leveling a house 1/4 mile from our house, where our 16yo daughter, 10yo son were being watched by my Mother-in-Law (who was in the guest house and seemed more concerned with her dogs than her grandkids). The road next to the pond the day after that tornado was under ~8-12" of water, but water didn't get in any structures on my property.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tornado_outbreak_and_floods_of_April_28_–_May_1,_2017#Canton–Fruitvale–Emory,_Texas

    Here are a few of the things I considered, based on that event and research on worse events:
    1) While you may only be in the shelter for "a few minutes" as the tornado passes, it should be comfortable enough that your family will get in it when there is a warning, and you may hang out there longer until the warning passes... A shelter that is not comfortable is one that may not get used in time.

    2) The shelter should be easily accessible (OP has this covered with it being an indoor "safe room")... don't put it so far from the house that when you're scrambling to get into it you're being pelted by golfball sized hail (or worse)

    3) Register your shelter with the county- they will notify first response crews if your coordinates are in the path of the tornado, and send a team to check on you. Count on power being out, cell service down, land lines down, satellite phone or battery powered 2-way radio would be only forms of communication.

    4) Below ground is better protected from wind, but above ground is better protected from flooding. Know your elevation, land layout and choose accordingly. My spread is somewhat flat, and we have 3 ponds- one is fed by at least 100 acres of land uphill (barely) from us. So far (since 1973?) water has never gotten to the main house- even during the 2017 tornadoes. But

    5) Have enough room in your shelter for basic emergency supplies... water, first aid kit(s), batteries & cables, anti-looting equipment of your choosing, non-perishable food, tools you'll need (Chainsaw, axes, cutters of all sizes, come-along, etc)... Depending on extent and location of damage, it could be some time before crews can safely get to you. I'm planning on building another (smaller) shelter to house fuel, gensets and other tools I wouldn't want to occupy the same space as my family.

    After careful consideration, I decided on a reinforced concrete "safe shed" 8x10', 24,000Lbs anchored to the ground on 4 corners with 3/4" steel auger anchors (same kind they use to anchor guy wires on power poles), with an escape option (a window covered with a 3/16" steel plate)
    https://www.safesheds.com/tornado-shelter.html
    They have one on display that took a direct hit from an EF4 in 2014... still structurally sound.

    I liked the idea of 4" of heavy steel reinforced concrete between me and debris, instead of a metal shell that will likely ring like a bell as each chunk hits it... and the price was similar to steel structures that were significantly smaller. I was concerned any location that made sense for a below-ground would be prone to flooding (and 2 exits would mean there are 2 places for water to enter)... I read about a family that almost drowned in their below-ground that was built into their garage floor when the sliding door jammed and they couldn't get out- water level was rising quickly until a neighbor heard them screaming for help.

    YMMV, every property and situation is different.
     
    Last edited:

    Lunyfringe

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    Canton, TX
    IDK about above ground. The Jerrell tornado vacuumed the foundation up. Everything above ground was gone. I know the odds of such a big tornado is rare but still. I wouldn't want to win that lottery.

    If I did a storm shelter myself. It's going in the ground.

    2 cents
    With below ground you trade security from wind for insecurity from water & flooding... how many above-ground shelters were in that area you saw?

    They have been proven to stand up in real-world EF5 tornadoes:
    https://newsok.com/article/3840636/...helters-stood-up-in-face-of-ef5-moore-tornado

    Also, if you do go with below ground- make SURE they are properly anchored:
     
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    oldag

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    Feb 19, 2015
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    Study the FEMA Link Sir! my construction plans, according to FEMA will be good for F5 Tornadoes.

    And door blockage may happen, that's why storm shelter door swing inside, not out.
    I have already covered the fact that we will have several radios and 4G. All powered by solar recharged batteries that should be good for a week even if we lose it's solar panels. (I am already running a 12 volt solar freezer by solar power exclusively with this system, so I've crossed that bridge already.) Plus I highly doubt all my family, friends and neighbors, plus the entire National Weather Service will be on vacation at the same time a tornado wipes out my home, and no one comes looking for survivors in the damage area.

    All of my neighbor, who have buried shelters, ALL have water issues in them. They are constantly having to replace sump pumps. Even my next door neighbors shelter in his closet, (a very large, and deep, one piece, fiberglass bathtub/ hot tub style in ground under a floor hatch) shelter fills with ground water on dry days. So where I live, underground is not a good option. Unless I want to deal with constant attention and diving into a half filled rancid pool of water. Your area is most likely different than mine! Consider storing your firearms in a damp cellar and get back to us on how that works for you!

    Like you said, my design works for us! And I have spelled our out to help for those who want to plan theirs with ideas.

    Anyone have any new products or ideas that might be useful in my situation?

    I have seen what an F5 can do. I will respectfully disagree with FEMA. But again, what are the odds.

    I should have been more clear on the door. There is blockage from debris. But there is also warping that can occur, which will prevent the door from opening in either direction. And for a steel door in a steel frame, it won't take much deflection to make it stick rather firmly. Sure somebody will eventually find you. Hope neither of you get claustrophobic. Just a suggestion, no skin off my back for your ignoring it.
     

    oldag

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    I went thru all the research, and with an established house there wasn't place to put an indoor shelter like you're proposing. We were in Colorado closing on our house there when the Canton Tornadoes April 28- May 1, 2017 hit... The EF4 in that outbreak ended as an EF3, practically leveling a house 1/4 mile from our house, where our 16yo daughter, 10yo son were being watched by my Mother-in-Law (who was in the guest house and seemed more concerned with her dogs than her grandkids). The road next to the pond the day after that tornado was under ~8-12" of water, but water didn't get in any structures on my property.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tornado_outbreak_and_floods_of_April_28_–_May_1,_2017#Canton–Fruitvale–Emory,_Texas

    Here are a few of the things I considered, based on that event and research on worse events:
    1) While you may only be in the shelter for "a few minutes" as the tornado passes, it should be comfortable enough that your family will get in it when there is a warning, and you may hang out there longer until the warning passes... A shelter that is not comfortable is one that may not get used in time.

    2) The shelter should be easily accessible (OP has this covered with it being an indoor "safe room")... don't put it so far from the house that when you're scrambling to get into it you're being pelted by golfball sized hail (or worse)

    3) Register your shelter with the county- they will notify first response crews if your coordinates are in the path of the tornado, and send a team to check on you. Count on power being out, cell service down, land lines down, satellite phone or battery powered 2-way radio would be only forms of communication.

    4) Below ground is better protected from wind, but above ground is better protected from flooding. Know your elevation, land layout and choose accordingly. My spread is somewhat flat, and we have 3 ponds- one is fed by at least 100 acres of land uphill (barely) from us. So far (since 1973?) water has never gotten to the main house- even during the 2017 tornadoes. But

    5) Have enough room in your shelter for basic emergency supplies... water, first aid kit(s), batteries & cables, anti-looting equipment of your choosing, non-perishable food, tools you'll need (Chainsaw, axes, cutters of all sizes, come-along, etc)... Depending on extent and location of damage, it could be some time before crews can safely get to you. I'm planning on building another (smaller) shelter to house fuel, gensets and other tools I wouldn't want to occupy the same space as my family.

    After careful consideration, I decided on a reinforced concrete "safe shed" 8x10', 24,000Lbs anchored to the ground on 4 corners with 3/4" steel auger anchors (same kind they use to anchor guy wires on power poles), with an escape option (a window covered with a 3/16" steel plate)
    https://www.safesheds.com/tornado-shelter.html
    They have one on display that took a direct hit from an EF4 in 2014... still structurally sound.

    I liked the idea of 4" of heavy steel reinforced concrete between me and debris, instead of a metal shell that will likely ring like a bell as each chunk hits it... and the price was similar to steel structures that were significantly smaller. I was concerned any location that made sense for a below-ground would be prone to flooding (and 2 exits would mean there are 2 places for water to enter)... I read about a family that almost drowned in their below-ground that was built into their garage floor when the sliding door jammed and they couldn't get out- water level was rising quickly until a neighbor heard them screaming for help.

    YMMV, every property and situation is different.


    A lot of good info, Luny. An 8x10 safeshed will run about $5-$6k delivered.
     

    Lunyfringe

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    A lot of good info, Luny. An 8x10 safeshed will run about $5-$6k delivered.
    and installed... they'll anchor it to the ground with that price, but you will have to level spot a for them to put it on, and clear access (I had to trim some trees and use a tractor to level the ground) I couldn't find anything else close to their price for something equivalent.

    Thanks, I did lots of research and tried to summarize it well. I almost went with an underground until I found they had their own issues... plus we have a Neopolitan Mastiff and 2 Daniffs (English Mastiff/Great Dane cross)... have you ever tried to coax a 150+Lb dog into a dark hole in the ground? but the water/flooding issues put an above-ground shelter over the top for us.

    I also think the FEMA "320" building guidelines are a minimum requirement to survive... if you can afford to beef things up a little more, it's only money.
     
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    Out of curiosity.

    How much do the stone blocks you see being used as a retaining wall? Or the concrete blocks like Kelly Blocks or Kentledge Blocks?

    What do they cost per block?
     

    Lunyfringe

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    Sep 22, 2017
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    Out of curiosity.

    How much do the stone blocks you see being used as a retaining wall? Or the concrete blocks like Kelly Blocks or Kentledge Blocks?

    What do they cost per block?
    I'd want to make sure they can be attached to each other... VERY WELL.
    Otherwise they'll just become projectiles... (or topple over and crush occupants)

    The safe shed shelter is a monolithic pour (steel rebar frame built, and one single pour of concrete around it, no seams)... only complaint so far is that the escape hatch and the front door tend to reverb at certain frequencies... I'll have to put some insulation on them to dampen the vibration.
     
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    Remember the tunnel to where they glued concrete sections to the roof and they started to fall? They used a fast cure epoxy when they should have used slow cure on the anchors.

    Amazing thing is, there's epoxy that'll hold the serious weight.
     

    markshere2

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    A. "The Government" is mostly wrong on almost every single thing they do. I would no more trust FEMA to specify my storm shelter than the EPA to make smart moves on mine drainage.

    2. Underground stuff gets wet. Period. Bad.

    c. Earth berming a shelter makes a lot of sense to me. Pour a slab, Attach a shelter (metal, concrete, whatever), and cover it over with a bunch of dirt. Make your own hobbit house that will allow the wind to swirl around it. As long as you have an established layer of plants with good root systems, the dirts not going anywhere and it will be resistant to flying 2x4s, cows, and F150s.

    Pros: doubles as a root cellar
    make it big enough and you can entertain in the cool....

    Cons: Not gonna work in a suburban development with active HOA board of jerks.
    Not fast and easy to buy and install

    Just spitballin here....
     

    M2 Carbine

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    When my Wife and I first moved here, I taught myself to lay blocks by us building a storm shelter.
    Complete with electricity, TV, cots, etc.
    For some years, while we still lived in a mobile home, we spent some stormy nights in our "cellar".

    Storm celler entrance.JPG


    Storm celler Hazel.jpg


    Storm cellar 2.JPG



    We did so good that later we built our whole house. My Wife got good at laying bricks. :)

    Hazel brick laying.jpg
     

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    thequintessentialman

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    Good discussion here...

    Was in Alabama a while back, there are some builders there specializing in fortified additions to homes as storm shelters and blending them in with the house. Have also seen some concrete "dumpster" shelters. Often wondered how one of those concrete domes from that company in Italy TX would take a direct hit. There built like an inverted swimming pool...



    Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
     

    Big Green

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    When my Wife and I first moved here, I taught myself to lay blocks by us building a storm shelter.
    Complete with electricity, TV, cots, etc.
    For some years, while we still lived in a mobile home, we spent some stormy nights in our "cellar".

    View attachment 172670

    View attachment 172671

    View attachment 172672


    We did so good that later we built our whole house. My Wife got good at laying bricks. :)

    View attachment 172669
    I really like that. I’ve thought about an earth covered building but hadn’t thought about the front you have, that’s nice and protected.
     

    Coyote9

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    I've been designing a storm shelter / survival equipment storage room for some time now. It won't be totally bullet proof, but should be pretty resistant to flying 2 x 4's or debris.

    Let me run this by you guys for your collective pondering and see what you think.

    Here's the idea. I live in a 2 story sticks and brick home in the Country and have a wrap around porch. On the south side of the porch there is 16 feet long run of un used porch/as in no visibility or reason to be there. My Master Bedroom Closet is where that porch stops on the south side of the house. Beautiful view of the air conditioner units.

    I'm thinking of expanding my bedroom closet about 6 feet longer to the edge of the bedroom window that looks out over the wrap around porch of the south wall of the bedroom.

    This will give me approximately 6' x 6' more closet where I will build my safe room add on inside. In reality I will build the safe room on the porch first and then continue the house wall siding to cover it and blend in with the rest of that side of the house.

    I will be using 8 inch and 10 inch wide, 14 gauge steel "C" purlins. My plan is to bolt the Purlins side edges together with the flat side out. Most likely either 1/2 in or 5/8th inch grade 8 bolts with washers spaced every 10 inches. The floor plates with be 3/16th thick structural in 3 x 2 inch angle. The 3 inch side of the angle iron will be the base that will be "Red Headed" into the 8" concrete foundation with 5/8" bolts.

    The roof/ ceiling of the room will be "C" Purlins bolted side by side and to the roof angle plates. Then tied to the wall plates with 4"x 3 inch 3/16" structural angle iron.

    Just so you understand, I live in an area where the largest tree is barely 12 feet tall and is more of a bush than a tree. I have 3 of these trees on my 3 acre property. I'm more concerned with wind and flying debris. And yes, I have worked Tornado damage before in my career. So I know what the possibilities are.

    The beauty of this steel box will be it will all be bolted and drilled, with a jig for consistency, in my shop on a commercial drill press. And the nuts will be mig welded in place. The nuts will all be welded to 2 inch washers then the washers welded over the drilled holes to ease construction. The bolts will have lock washers the flat washers. All installed with an impact drill.

    The 32" wide entry door will be in the end of the master closet wall, hidden behind the shoe closet. The entry door will swing into the box and be made of a minimum of 1/4" , possibly 3/8 " steel plate, welded to an angle iron frame. The door wall frame will be framed and welded and bolted to the "C" Purlins. Door latches will be like those of a safe or Submarine. Thinking I may hinge it like a Commercial airplane door with double hinges so it can be opened and folded flatter for easier entry.

    The corners of the box will be 2" x 2" box steel with appropriate RIVNUTS placed in the same spacing and all the other bolt patterns.

    This safe room will then be extremely fire proof insulated and for sound deadening and temperature insulation. Possibly with Kevlar panels if the cash holds out. The beauty is I could add Kevlar panels to the inside of the "C" later. The inner walls will be finished out with removable ECM or Wood Panels, screwed in place. This will also allow me to reconfigure the wiring or ventilation as I see the need.

    I will wire in the room for 12 volt lighting, ventilation fans, Ham / CB & GMRS radios (with appropriate antennas mounted outside) and other 12 volts systems and use lithium batteries recharged by 2 - 10 watt solar panels mounted on the outer wall of the house on the south side. Plus a hand crank charger. And there will be shelving brackets everywhere so we can manage our storage anyway we feel we need. All wiring will be installed in conduits and wiring will follow Commercial Standards. I'm a Retired power Company Lineman/ Technician.

    The plan is to add a fold down cot to the longest end wall. It will be used more for seating but will make a comfortable place to sack out if the need be. Since it's just my wife and I there won't be much need for more bedding. We will have a fold down computer desk table with a flat screen TV mounted to the wall. I am currently wiring the house for 12 volt security cameras with feeds to both my office and safe room. This will give me monitoring of the safe room charging system outside the safe room.

    BTY, My wife is a Certified National Weather Service Storm Spotter! So she will insist on having her Ham Radio and Weather Radar in the room.

    All 120 volt outlets will be fed from the house power system so we will know if the house power is still working. (I'm going off gird with solar panels and cisterns on the house, but will maintain back up connections to the grid.) Oh, and I already have a backup generator wired to the house wiring.

    I have a DC 12V/ AC 120V dual zone freezer and hassock toilet for the safe room. Plus water and food storage.

    Going to be cramped, for sure, but all my friends are Cops, so if our house is ever hit by a Tornado they will know where to look for us. So Hopefully we won't have to stay in it long.

    If it goes as planned the safe room entry door will be hidden by the shoe shelving. And that shelving will be held to the door with removable pins that can be removed from the inside of the door, just in case the house has collapsed on top of the room.
    But like I said, the rescue guys will know where to look for us. And most of my neighbors have either safe rooms or tornado shelters outside their homes. So not likely I will have people breaking down the door to get in. And yes there will be firearm storage inside. :)

    Did I forget anything?

    If there is an interest I'll add pictures as the build progresses!
     

    Sasquatch

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    Tagging this thread because I'm interested in the results. We have a steel storm shelter that was left behind by the previous owner - but its parked out in the damn pasture, with the entry door up against a lean-to. Need to move it near to the house and get it set up so it can be used. Would love a more permanent, comfortable solution just in case. That shelter is tiny - I think its 4' x 6' - and with 4 of us + 2 dogs, it'd be real cozy.
     

    mitchntx

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    I didn't read the thread thoroughly ... just skimmed.

    I have a storm shelter that is a 8x8x8 OD concrete vault sunk about 5' in the ground.

    The door lay's at about a 45* angle and has no assist on it to open or close. It's heavy ... somewhere between 10 and 16 gauge, I'm guessing. I bought a 10T bottle jack and heavy pry bars and stored them in the shelter in order to open the door when a truck is laying on the door.

    I have a boat horn that I can signal for folks as well.

    I keep a couple ricks of bottled water down there ... try to remember to rotate every 6 months or so.

    2x8s on cinder blocks for seating.

    It stays dry and cool in August
     

    satx78247

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    TO All,

    Having lived through TWO major tornados (I was IN the Paris Tornado & IN the Jonesville Tornado, we WILL be building a storm cellar/safe room into the villa that my lady wants to have refurbished, that will be LARGER than one needs "to swing a cat in".
    (People who were alive then, still talk about how awful that those 2 twisters were.)
    As of today, I have been involved in R&R for (I think) 8 hurricanes, including CARLA, which nearly 60 years later that I still think of as: THE HORROR STORY of HORROR STORIES.
    (Members who are interested in reading my experiences/thoughts on hurricane survival may want to look on the WWW for a lengthy article entitled : "WEREN'T NARY A ONE OF 'EM LADIES" - The BAD grammar in the title is intentional btw.)

    Personally, IF one lives in GOD'S COUNTRY, i.e., TEXAS, I think you are NUTS to NOT have a storm shelter/safe place to evacuate your loved ones & yourself into.

    just my OPINIONS, satx
     
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