FireInTheWire
Caprock Crusader
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Solar panels and deep cycle batteries
- Thread starter Vaquero
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That would be a neat trick !
thescoutranch
TN Transplant - We love living in TX
We were planning on getting the correct inverters initially so they could support grid tie only or battery backup (I forget the correct term for those inverters). Staying away from micro inverters since they require grid power to operate.
If I do my part right there should not be any change out of hardware to add batteries later. am I missing something?
Yes we will have to go with a smart meter, but I had not read about them limiting you on consumption in Texas, yet.
Do you know something I don’t?
Thanks
RedneckHillbilly
Blacksheep of forums
Supposedly there’s a paint you can buy, to paint your rooms, to help knock out the radio frequencies that inundates the atmosphere night and day. Supposedly it’s good to sleep in a room without that stuff all the time, especially those smart meters for your electric power company to see how much energy you use, kinda like the 5G stuff. Never tried it, just something tin foil hat people think about, when they’re bored.
If you are working with a good solar company, and as long as they know everything you want to eventually do, you should be alright.
Where some folks get confused is they don't realize that the components (battery bank, inverter, etc) of their off-grid/grid-down system have to be all the same Voltage. Only suggestion I have, without knowing the details of your plans, is to think about your eventual battery bank - specifically what Voltage you'll want it configured to be (likely 48V) - and then the 'battery-backup' inverter you purchase now, along with the grid-tie inverter, will match up with your batteries. You'll need a charge controller down the road too (downstream from the array) - and the higher voltage ones can be pretty costly. And.. there'll be costs involved wiring the second inverter to the main (or sub panel), etc, when the time comes.
Yet - is the operative word here. In time everything will be controlled. By then, though, maybe you'll have your batteries in place...and the design will be sufficient enough to stand alone, if need be.
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The decision of micro inverter vs string inverter is like religion, and they each have their plusses and minuses.
With a string inverters, if one or more panels is blocked by tree, leaves, nesting pterodactyl, or whatever, it will bring the entire output of all the panels down as well. With microinverters, only the affected panels will have output drop.
The disadvantage to the microinverters is they are a tiny bit less effective output overall due to the loss in the microinverters.
I chose the microinverter route myself, some will agree with me and others will point out their beliefs. There's no right answer, again, it's like religion.
I've got 44 375 watt LG panels with Enphase microinverters and an Enphase controller, hooked to a Tesla Powerwall 2.
With a string inverters, if one or more panels is blocked by tree, leaves, nesting pterodactyl, or whatever, it will bring the entire output of all the panels down as well. With microinverters, only the affected panels will have output drop.
The disadvantage to the microinverters is they are a tiny bit less effective output overall due to the loss in the microinverters.
I chose the microinverter route myself, some will agree with me and others will point out their beliefs. There's no right answer, again, it's like religion.
I've got 44 375 watt LG panels with Enphase microinverters and an Enphase controller, hooked to a Tesla Powerwall 2.
That's some system!
Are all 44 panels on your roof?
What's the voltage and Amp hours on your powerwall, if you dont mind me asking, lol.
Ah...never mind..I'll just go find it online...I'm curious about it's other specs too.
I dont think Microinverters require grid power. If they do that's news to me.
News to me too.
They'd get the power they need from the panel(s) they support - if those panels were shaded there'd be nothing needing converting to AC.
TxPython357
Active Member
Well, from where I sit in the cheap seats this is all over my head. When it comes to solar MG will be in charge as she has been there, and done that. Me? I'll plug the thing in.
Our plan is to be as self reliant as possible if this old world decides to up and go crazier then it already is. We are connected to the grid and like our creature comforts, but we are prepared to go off grid if this old rock we live on goes sideways.
Our plan is to be as self reliant as possible if this old world decides to up and go crazier then it already is. We are connected to the grid and like our creature comforts, but we are prepared to go off grid if this old rock we live on goes sideways.
MG, I didn't read all the specs, but wonder if buying up to those LiFePO4 cells gets you a lot more charge cycles? That would be worth something, if so.
Yes all 44 panels are on the roof on one side. It will put out 16.5kW max supposedly, but I never see more than 13.5. There will be some loss with the inverters and such.
The voltage of the Powerwall is 220v and it will power everything in the house except the HVAC system in case of power outage.
The Powerwall 2 is a 13.5kwH battery.
CONFESSION TIME
I'm kinda hinky about grid-tie systems. The lack-of-control/political aspects aside, there are physical reasons to avoid some of the setups. I'm not judging anything anyone here has done, or might do, only expressing my thoughts/concerns. Take this as you will.
IF the main goal is to reduce your utility bill - and never to have a separate back-up system for grid-down - then go as big as you can, and more power to ya!
IF the main goal is to have some back-up, and also sell some juice back to the elec co, then careful planning needs to happen because that's not as simple as solar companies make it out to be. What I learned, crawling up the learning curve, is that there needs to be a balanced relationship between the panels' output and the battery bank's storage capacity...and the balance isn't there in the grid-tie setup.
If the array's output is too small - a large battery bank will never be topped off by solar only. If the array's output is too large - a small battery bank will top off quickly and the excess energy will have to be shunted off. That's basic stuff, there.
Here's my problem with grid-tie. The ones I've seen have many panels - 44 in @no2gates system - for home use or to send back through the grid; which is the point of the whole thing! Yay! But the balance between the panels and the batts are WAAAAYYY out of whack. When the grid is down - that giant array would still be sending down massive amounts... only this time, trying to push it into the batteries. Think trying to fill a water glass with a fire hose.
There are ways to handle all that extra juice; and I leave it to those who wish to go that path. My way, which is neither here nor there, would be to have a separate solar system for backup when the grid is down, with the right size relationship between the panels & battery bank, and large enough to meet any need we might have.
That's all, thanks for reading.
.
.
p.s...With a separate solar system, your use of 'grid' power would be very nominal. Ya wouldn't be selling them any juice - but you wouldn't be buying much from them either. LOL
I'm kinda hinky about grid-tie systems. The lack-of-control/political aspects aside, there are physical reasons to avoid some of the setups. I'm not judging anything anyone here has done, or might do, only expressing my thoughts/concerns. Take this as you will.
IF the main goal is to reduce your utility bill - and never to have a separate back-up system for grid-down - then go as big as you can, and more power to ya!
IF the main goal is to have some back-up, and also sell some juice back to the elec co, then careful planning needs to happen because that's not as simple as solar companies make it out to be. What I learned, crawling up the learning curve, is that there needs to be a balanced relationship between the panels' output and the battery bank's storage capacity...and the balance isn't there in the grid-tie setup.
If the array's output is too small - a large battery bank will never be topped off by solar only. If the array's output is too large - a small battery bank will top off quickly and the excess energy will have to be shunted off. That's basic stuff, there.
Here's my problem with grid-tie. The ones I've seen have many panels - 44 in @no2gates system - for home use or to send back through the grid; which is the point of the whole thing! Yay! But the balance between the panels and the batts are WAAAAYYY out of whack. When the grid is down - that giant array would still be sending down massive amounts... only this time, trying to push it into the batteries. Think trying to fill a water glass with a fire hose.
There are ways to handle all that extra juice; and I leave it to those who wish to go that path. My way, which is neither here nor there, would be to have a separate solar system for backup when the grid is down, with the right size relationship between the panels & battery bank, and large enough to meet any need we might have.
That's all, thanks for reading.
.
.
p.s...With a separate solar system, your use of 'grid' power would be very nominal. Ya wouldn't be selling them any juice - but you wouldn't be buying much from them either. LOL
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Hybrid...
First, I have to admit to being a TEOTWAWKI paranoid prepper.
My "system" is a real hodgepodge started in ignorance and adapted as best possible...
Water being critical importance, I needed a generator big enough to run my 3hp deep well pump... I bought a Miller Bobcat Welder (10kw). My thought at the time was that I would use the welder far more than the generator, and that has been the case.
Wanting to go solar, I looked for the simplest install that I could do myself... That ended up being 30 LG MonoX 300w panels with integrated microinverters for 9kw. My thought at the time was that a micro inverter failing would decrease my production by 3%, while a line inverter failure would cut power 100%... So far, none have failed, but LG stopped producing integrated inverter panels and now solar panels.
Wanting some off-grid capability I added a 4kw Magnum inverter with my 48v (8x 6v Trojan 105) as the emergency power source. Something like this is required to convert a micro inverter system into a hybrid system, but with the advantage of added cost...
Wanting a more dedicated battery bank for extra capacity, I added a 8x Trojan 105 stationary bank. Thought was that I could transition this set to the golf cart when it's set failed and add a lithium battery bank for house power if those decreased in price.
Wanting a water souce not dependent on batteries or generator, I installed 4x 300w Mission panels and a 750w solar direct controller and pump on my shallow well. This is probably the smartest thing most people could do, at a relatively low cost, to ensure a water source after SHTF.
Wanting the ability to pump water from that well under cloud cover or at night, I added 5x 12v Everstart 29dc batteries to the system, being the cheapest way to 60v...
Then, I added 1200w solar panels and a 750w pump to storage for backup... That's my EMP emergency water backup.
I wouldn't do any of that the same way again, but it does all work, kinda...
My assessment of my primary weakness is still power storage...
For that, I'm currently thinking about 3x 48v 100ah Trophy or SOK LiFePO4 server rack batteries for about 15kwh of storage at a cost of about $5k...
I think anything done toward power generation, beyond an emergency generator, has to just be something you want to do, cause the cost to benefits can't really be justified any other way.
Kinda like guns after the first couple...
All that money and won't be able to use your AC?
Right. We were talking about the 'micro-inverters' attached to each panel - like the integrated ones you spoke of. Again, if those things require a source of power, other than what the panel itself could provide, it would surprise me.
The advantage to having excess generation is that you'll have more power on cloudy days...CONFESSION TIME
I'm kinda hinky about grid-tie systems. The lack-of-control/political aspects aside, there are physical reasons to avoid some of the setups. I'm not judging anything anyone here has done, or might do, only expressing my thoughts/concerns. Take this as you will.
IF the main goal is to reduce your utility bill - and never to have a separate back-up system for grid-down - then go as big as you can, and more power to ya!
IF the main goal is to have some back-up, and also sell some juice back to the elec co, then careful planning needs to happen because that's not as simple as solar companies make it out to be. What I learned, crawling up the learning curve, is that there needs to be a balanced relationship between the panels' output and the battery bank's storage capacity...and the balance isn't there in the grid-tie setup.
If the array's output is too small - a large battery bank will never be topped off by solar only. If the array's output is too large - a small battery bank will top off quickly and the excess energy will have to be shunted off. That's basic stuff, there.
Here's my problem with grid-tie. The ones I've seen have multiple panels - for home use or to send back through the grid; which is the point of the whole thing! Yay! But the balance between the panels and the batts are WAAAAYYY out of whack. When the grid is down - that giant array would still be sending down massive amounts... only this time, trying to push it into the batteries. Think trying to fill a water glass with a fire hose.
There are ways to handle all that extra juice; and I leave it to those who wish to go that path. My way, which is neither here nor there, would be to have a separate solar system for backup when the grid is down, with the right size relationship between the panels & battery bank, and large enough to meet any need we might have.
That's all, thanks for reading.
.
.
p.s...With a separate solar system, your use of 'grid' power would be very nominal. Ya wouldn't be selling them any juice - but you wouldn't be buying much from them either. LOL
The way I first dealt with the generation to storage mismatch is with manual switches to cutoff one or two of my 10 panel 3kw strings when there is excess sun.
Then later, to automate, I added current sensing relays to two strings that are controlled by the current in the primary string, shutting those down as required to maintain a max total output current for battery charging in an off-grid situation..
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