APOD Firearms

Romeo Zero won't zero (can't get low enough)

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  • clawmarks

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    Hi everyone,

    Looking for support, perhaps someone with more experience can help me figure this thing out...
    So I got me a Sig P365XL with Romeo Zero red dot, this red dot sight is equipped with regular sights as well, so you're supposed to be able to co-witness the thing.
    However, no matter how much I turn the elevation screw, the red dot will not get low enough to co-witness (side note - I'm turning to the "UP" direction, and I've tried turning it both directions just in case something was messed up - didn't help).
    In practice, it means the red dot is always above the actual point of aim. The physical sights will get me to hit the mark, the red dot will always make me shoot lower (since it's aiming higher).

    I have no idea how to get this thing fixed, I'm planning to contact sig's support but that's more of a "last resort" kind of solution since who knows how long will they take to answer... I'm really hoping someone here may have some insights into this thing.

    Thanks
    Hurley's Gold
     

    toddnjoyce

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    Q: does your P365 have regular or tall sights?

    All my red dots sit like a lollipop on top of the front sight post.

    Some people have the lower 1/3rd of the red dot overlaid on the front sight post.
     

    clawmarks

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    Q: does your P365 have regular or tall sights?

    All my red dots sit like a lollipop on top of the front sight post.

    Some people have the lower 1/3rd of the red dot overlaid on the front sight post.

    I'm sorry, I'm a bit new to this so I didn't fully understand your message.

    When you ask about regular or tall sight, are you asking about the physical sights? If so, I got the original (regular) sight in the front, so I don't think it's tall.

    Either way - what I don't get is, even if the physical sights are lower, I'm supposed to be able to get the dot low enough so it'll aim properly - but it doesn't go any lower than where it currently is

    I didn't get the part with the lower third.

    I'll take a couple of pictures and post here, maybe it'll clear it up
     

    SQLGeek

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    Yes, the physical sights. Taller sights are also known as suppressor height sights. They are raised so you can get a sight picture on your target with a suppressor on your pistol. They're also used for cowitnessing your sights to your red dot.

    Read this, they talk about rifles but same general concept.

    https://www.guns.com/news/2019/08/28/how-to-co-witness-your-sights

    Lower third means that your sights sit in the lower third of your optic instead of aligning with your red dot (known as absolute cowitness). Depending upon the gun and optic, standard height sights may not be tall enough to absolutely cowitness with your red dot.

    Also the "UP" direction on your sight moves your point of impact up. If you want to lower point of impact, you need to go the opposite direction.

    Edited to add: Your dot won't physically move in your optic when you adjust the windage/elevation. It's going to stay centered. What will move is the point of impact of where your rounds are hitting. You want to adjust the dot so the rounds hit where the dot is.

    Read this too:

    https://www.primaryarms.com/blog/zero-a-red-dot-sight-best-hack-ever
     
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    toddnjoyce

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    I'm sorry, I'm a bit new to this so I didn't fully understand your message.

    When you ask about regular or tall sight, are you asking about the physical sights? If so, I got the original (regular) sight in the front, so I don't think it's tall.

    Either way - what I don't get is, even if the physical sights are lower, I'm supposed to be able to get the dot low enough so it'll aim properly - but it doesn't go any lower than where it currently is

    I didn't get the part with the lower third.

    I'll take a couple of pictures and post here, maybe it'll clear it up

    As @SQLGeek mentioned, yes; the height of the physical sight. But, after looking at this photo, it’s irrelevant in your case if yours looks like this
    a8402bfa44058716d55c0d94f1a7fd2a.jpg

    Two things to take away; the MRDO is recessed into the slide, which lowers the viewing window to better align with the traditional sights. Second, the iron sights are part of the base of the MRDO...this is unique.

    Here is an example of the lollipop or absolute cowitness when using a taller (~.315”) sight set vs standard (~.165”) when the MRDO isn’t recessed into the slide.

    a47075aa1ee8e2ad65e05c75c9e7ca43.jpg
     

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    rotor

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    toddnjoyce has it right. Here is what I would do. Sight the gun in using the red dot first, if shooting low then turn the up to raise the point of impact. Same for windage. Once the red dot is right on the button point of impact wise I bet that your iron sights look like the picture above when aimed at the point of impact with the red dot. If not it goes back to sig. My wife has the p320 Romeo, it has the tall sights and when the red dot is set the iron sights align perfectly but this model has the rear site cut into the Romeo and what looks like a standard front sight. Wife's gun aligns more in center of red dot field. This gun looks like it aligns low like in the above picture. If iron sights are perfect though all you have to do is correct red dot sights to hit same point of impact and let us know what the sight picture looks like then. Sig says the guns are adjusted right at the factory, not so-they need sighting in. Keep us informed.
    My wife's Romeo if you look at it funny has what I call a false red dot so make sure the red dot is actually THE real red dot. You may have to really turn the brightness up and make sure you are adjusting the true red dot, wiggle the gun around as you look to make sure that you really have the dot. It can be confusing finding the dot. At least for me it is anyway. I actually find the dot by co witnessing the iron sights first. But our sights are adjusted.
     

    A_3

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    Interesting, I run an X5 legion with a Romeo 3 Max red dot sight with a springer precision plate to mount. So it absolutely does not co witness to the front iron sight. Does take a bit to get used to but I can attest that once you get used to presenting, picking up the dot and letting it rip you won’t worry about that front sight anymore.

    Just my two cents


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     

    clawmarks

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    The zero was built to be Co witnessed, but never mind that, when I bring the dot to the lowest position I can - it's still above the actual point of aim.

    That is my issue, I can't seem to get it low enough...
    5e7673cbc64b13c774a0d72300802de8.jpg
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    SQLGeek

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    You won't. Those sights are too low for an absolute co witness. You can still use the sights as backup but they won't touch the dot.

    If you can't adjust the sight's point of impact then you need to contact Sig. Does the POI move at all?

    Where are your shots hitting when you use just the iron sights? Low and to the left by chance?
     
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    clawmarks

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    When I use the iron sights, it's hitting pretty much where I aim it.
    Also, the POI moves when I try to bring it up, just won't go low enough.

    IMPORTANT UPDATE (for future readers): Just got off the phone with Sig's rep, he told me that -
    A. The sights won't co-witness (side note: this is not what they say on some of their marketing material)
    B. This is the important one: When zeroing the sight, you should first un-torque the screws, work with elevation/windage, and re-torque once you're zeroed. This is not on their manual (they're working on adding it). Without doing this process, the sight may be damaged. He told me to retry, and if it doesn't work reach out to them as well.

    I must admit that this torque situation is a bit weird, because I assume that torquing it AFTER zero can affect the POI, no? Well, I'll try and update..
     
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    Dawico

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    Sounds like the body of the unit and the mounting screws may be poorly designed.

    Do as they say and see if it will zero.

    If it still won't zero you may need to shim the back to raise it up a bit so it will zero properly.

    What distance are you trying to zero at? Did they have a recommendation? You may be trying to zero too close.

    15 yards would be my go to distance on something like that.
     

    clawmarks

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    He recommended 25 yards O.O

    I actually tried 15 yards at first, and I didn't hit anything, and before you call me an inaccurate newbie (which I am:) I should mention that I could hit it properly with the iron sights.
    So I reduced the zeroing distance to 10 yards, but as mentioned, would not go low enough.

    Anyway, an interim update: I untorqued the red dot, and violla - it will now get a lot closer to the iron sight (which means that it will go lower than before). However, exactly as I suspected, when torquing it back the point moves slightly... So... Yeah, not the best thing to zero that's for sure.
    I'll head out to the range again and have some more iterations, my plan is to get it "close enough" untorqued, and then do the final adjustments (if required) once it's torqued back. I just hope it's still operational and that I don't need to ship it to them for warranty and whatnot.

    Having said all of that, this gun & sight combo (well, especially the gun) is a piece of engineering I really appreciate, from the practical design aspect. It's extremely slim but somehow manages to carry 12+1, and my hands (on the large side of the spectrum) can grip it really well. I hope once I'll be done with these hiccups it'll perform as good as it looks.

    Will update.
     

    toddnjoyce

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    ... I untorqued the red dot, and violla - it will now get a lot closer to the iron sight (which means that it will go lower than before). However, exactly as I suspected, when torquing it back the point moves slightly... So... Yeah, not the best thing to zero that's for sure.
    What value are you torquing to? The Allen screws are supposed to be torqued to 9 inch pounds.

    Also, with an MRDO, you zero to point of impact, not point of aim.
     

    clawmarks

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    What value are you torquing to? The Allen screws are supposed to be torqued to 9 inch pounds.

    Also, with an MRDO, you zero to point of impact, not point of aim.
    Thanks, these are the values I'm using (from the manual), will also apply blue locktight.

    Sorry for my ignorance, but what is the difference between the two (POI / POA)? I thought it's the same thing.

    My zero process: taking a printed zero target, shoot 3-5 rounds using only the red dot and focusing on the target, if I hit low then I twist the screw towards the "up" direction (same with sides), repeat.

    So in my head, where I aim should be where I impact in the end, that's where my confusion comes from I guess.
     

    oldag

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    Thanks, these are the values I'm using (from the manual), will also apply blue locktight.

    Sorry for my ignorance, but what is the difference between the two (POI / POA)? I thought it's the same thing.

    My zero process: taking a printed zero target, shoot 3-5 rounds using only the red dot and focusing on the target, if I hit low then I twist the screw towards the "up" direction (same with sides), repeat.

    So in my head, where I aim should be where I impact in the end, that's where my confusion comes from I guess.
    Strongly recommend purple loctite, not blue, for this application.

    Purple is intended for small fasteners and is adequate for stopping vibration from loosening the screws.
     

    toddnjoyce

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    Thanks, these are the values I'm using (from the manual), will also apply blue locktight.

    Sorry for my ignorance, but what is the difference between the two (POI / POA)? I thought it's the same thing.

    My zero process: taking a printed zero target, shoot 3-5 rounds using only the red dot and focusing on the target, if I hit low then I twist the screw towards the "up" direction (same with sides), repeat.

    So in my head, where I aim should be where I impact in the end, that's where my confusion comes from I guess.

    Point of impact is the hole in the target. Point of aim is what your sight picture looks like to get that impact.

    In this image below, you see two different points of aim that result in the same point of impact.

    a46cee76448e1e07bca76954a7b3ef03.jpg


    Given where you are now, I would put a 3- or 5-shot group downrange at 5 yards using iron sights and see if you can get the red dot to center on that group without any reference to the irons (forget they exist). If that works, then tighten to 9 in-pounds and fire.

    If you can’t get that to happen, then I’d agree they unit is probably hosed. If/when they send a new one, make no adjustments until after you have fired the pistol using the red dot only...Sig mechanically centers the dot during manufacturing, so it should be pretty close out of the box.
     

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