Reloading 223 headspace

[MrRobot]

Hello all,

Well this weekend went out to the inside range since it's been HOT!!!!!!!!!!

I finally bought some factor ammo 55 gram USA brass. Saved all 20 rounds and came home de-prime them. Once done I measured the brass and it measured at

1.4585.

Like i mention in the passed I have always picked up range brass with different brass stamps. After de-priming and cleaning the old range brass I started to measure. I was notice about 30 rounds the headspace was pushed back .006 to .007 (1.452.0)

From my understand on .223 you only want to bump headspace .003 or .004 . Going higher will cause some issue . I tried looking online and reading but haven't found someone having issue issue with used brass being .006 up to .007.

Does that mean that brass is no good anymore?

If anyone has any feedback please let me know.

Thank you,

 

[Nicholst55]

What you will probably experience with that brass is case separation down the road. As the brass is sized, reloaded and fired, the case shoulder is first pushed back, and then forced to flow forwards to fill the chamber when the round is fired. Think of it this way; first the brass expands to fill the chamber and seal it. Then the shoulder is pushed back. At the next firing, the shoulder flows forwards again to seal the chamber. Expand and contract. Eventually, the case will separate at the thinnest spot, typically just forward of the case head.

 

[Wiliamr]

How are measuring headspace

 

[RankAmateur]

Hello all,

Well this weekend went out to the inside range since it's been HOT!!!!!!!!!!

I finally bought some factor ammo 55 gram USA brass. Saved all 20 rounds and came home de-prime them. Once done I measured the brass and it measured at

1.4585.

Like i mention in the passed I have always picked up range brass with different brass stamps. After de-priming and cleaning the old range brass I started to measure. I was notice about 30 rounds the headspace was pushed back .006 to .007 (1.452.0)

From my understand on .223 you only want to bump headspace .003 or .004 . Going higher will cause some issue . I tried looking online and reading but haven't found someone having issue issue with used brass being .006 up to .007.

Does that mean that brass is no good anymore?

If anyone has any feedback please let me know.

Thank you,

This is conjecture as we can't measure your rifle or that of the folks who fired the range-pickup brass. The measurements you got are not necessarily due to the reloading practices of those other folks. If you accept that pressure from the firing of a round "fire-forms" the brass to the inside shape and dimensions of the rifle's chamber, you are more likely measuring variations in the chamber dimensions of various rifles.

Factory ammo is manufactured on the smaller side of specs to ensure that it will fit in most chambers. Precision reloaders arrange their dies so that the resized brass is only slightly smaller then the chamber in their rifle. It is most likely (with .223/5.56 brass) that your range pickups are once-fired factory rounds (not for sure, and certainly dependent on your range/who shoots there). You won't find range-pickups of brass that is fire-formed smaller than the factory brass because if the factory brass is larger than the rifle chamber, it won't load, so it wouldn't have been fired.

If you reload the brass from your new factory rounds AND some of the better-looking range pickup brass (brass that doesn't look heavily used - not scientific, but a place to start). Set up your die to bump the shoulder just one or two thousandths less than the new factory brass that you took out of YOUR rifle (1.458 was your measurement, so try for 1.456?). Size all of the test brass (yours and some better range-pickups) with that die setup. Then, shoot them all from YOUR rifle, collect the brass and measure again. Measurements should be closer to each other than they are now. If that's the case, you'll be fine to use the better range-pickup brass for reloading (again as it is also likely from once-fired factory brass).

Hope this is helpful.

 

[MrRobot]

This is conjecture as we can't measure your rifle or that of the folks who fired the range-pickup brass. The measurements you got are not necessarily due to the reloading practices of those other folks. If you accept that pressure from the firing of a round "fire-forms" the brass to the inside shape and dimensions of the rifle's chamber, you are more likely measuring variations in the chamber dimensions of various rifles.

Factory ammo is manufactured on the smaller side of specs to ensure that it will fit in most chambers. Precision reloaders arrange their dies so that the resized brass is only slightly smaller then the chamber in their rifle. It is most likely (with .223/5.56 brass) that your range pickups are once-fired factory rounds (not for sure, and certainly dependent on your range/who shoots there). You won't find range-pickups of brass that is fire-formed smaller than the factory brass because if the factory brass is larger than the rifle chamber, it won't load, so it wouldn't have been fired.

If you reload the brass from your new factory rounds AND some of the better-looking range pickup brass (brass that doesn't look heavily used - not scientific, but a place to start). Set up your die to bump the shoulder just one or two thousandths less than the new factory brass that you took out of YOUR rifle (1.458 was your measurement, so try for 1.456?). Size all of the test brass (yours and some better range-pickups) with that die setup. Then, shoot them all from YOUR rifle, collect the brass and measure again. Measurements should be closer to each other than they are now. If that's the case, you'll be fine to use the better range-pickup brass for reloading (again as it is also likely from once-fired factory brass).

Hope this is helpful.

Thank you very much for your advice. I want to say almost all the brass I picked up and my wife picked up was new. The out door range I went I seen guys pulling out new ammo boxes that they purchase. Name brand I would see them going threw boxes like it was candy... I made sure to ask them if I could pick them up. They just laugh at me and said sure.

I guess most people don't understand the meaning of reloading and the benefit you get out of it.

@Wiliamr here are the measurements you requested.

1.458 - from my AR one time shot.

Range brass I pickup
1.451
1.453
1.454
1.455

As you can tell it's all over the place. Do you guys think I should stay around

1.456 = 0.002
1.455 = 0.003
1.454 = 0.004


thanks everyone for the feedback.

 

[Wiliamr]

What I was asking, was the method by which you are measuring "headspace"? Please walk us through just how you are arriving at the measurements. what tools, Calipers, dial or machinists, how are you locating the datum point for these measurements?

 

[reddog]

I'm with Wiliamr, how are you measuring? You are saying headspace, I'm thinking you are measuring/meaning case length, two very different things.

 

[RankAmateur]

Thank you very much for your advice. I want to say almost all the brass I picked up and my wife picked up was new. The out door range I went I seen guys pulling out new ammo boxes that they purchase. Name brand I would see them going threw boxes like it was candy... I made sure to ask them if I could pick them up. They just laugh at me and said sure.

I guess most people don't understand the meaning of reloading and the benefit you get out of it.

@Wiliamr here are the measurements you requested.

1.458 - from my AR one time shot.

Range brass I pickup
1.451
1.453
1.454
1.455

As you can tell it's all over the place. Do you guys think I should stay around

1.456 = 0.002
1.455 = 0.003
1.454 = 0.004


thanks everyone for the feedback.

Sure. BTW, I think @Wiliamr was asking HOW you measured your brass. Are you using calipers with a comparator attachment like the ones from Sinclair or Hornady, etc?

There is no benefit (to you) to undersize your brass (compared to your own chamber). Doing so works the brass with each firing/sizing cycle, which makes the brass harder. Eventually, the brass will fail. You can minimize the work hardening of your brass by annealing it (most people don't do that for AR ammo), and/or sizing the brass down so that it JUST fits easily into your chamber. Hence the advice to bump the shoulder back only a couple of thousandths from the maximum length it achieves in your chamber.

5.56 NATO chambers are cut a bit looser than .223 Rem to ensure rounds will load reliably even when the weapon is dirty (there are other size differences in the leade, but those aren't relevant here). Your sizing die will take care of body width, neck sizing, etc., so the only adjustment you should pay attention to here is base to shoulder datum. If you size your new brass down to 1.456 (two thousandths bump), and then refire them in your rifle, and AGAIN get the same 1.458 measurement, you can be fairly sure that is the measurement inside your rifle. At that point, I wouldn't care about the other measurements. Just set your die to bump your brass for YOUR chamber.

Again, brass sized shorter WILL load and fire in your rifle, but you'll be working that brass hard, and it will fail sooner. After reloading the pick-up brass and firing it, I would be pretty diligent about inspecting it for stress lines and fractures as you already KNOW it will be expanding a good bit during fire-forming to your chamber.

Have fun and be safe!

EDIT: Sorry, others responded before I finished this post...

 

[RankAmateur]

I'm with Wiliamr, how are you measuring? You are saying headspace, I'm thinking you are measuring/meaning case length, two very different things.

Good thought, but I think OP is measuring base to shoulder datum (which is analogous to headspace in a bottleneck cartridge). Case length of .223 Rem/5.56x45 would be closer to 1.76...

 

[popper]

Your RPU is fine, anneal, reload and shoot in your AR. Shoulder will be back where it should be in YOUR rifle.

 

[Wiliamr]

I am curious as to how OP is finding the shoulder datum point. Holding a dial caliper in one hand and a case in the other and taking a measuremnt from the side of case? Or is he using a comparitor like Hornadays, or is he using a Lee or Wilson headspace gauge and a dial caliper to dip the rod of caliper down to case when it is in the gauge... etc.

 

[Lonesome Dove]

Unless you're having cracks or separation just shoot it it will be fine. I've never bothered to measure unless I was having issues and that was Only for Ackley cases.

 

[MrRobot]

Here you go @Wiliamr

I zero out the calipers and measured it.

@RankAmateur I think that's what I'm going to try. I'm going to bump the headspace back 0.002 from 1.458 to 1.456 and see if I get the same reading like you said. I will see if I could get it done tonight, and go out Sunday.

 

[Wiliamr]

That looks like a fine rig to measure headspace. One thing you may experience is brass springing back when you size it. If you are not already doing this, I suggest washing any range brass you pick up. Tiny particles of grit can hide on the brass and scratch not only the brass, but the die as well. Quartz particles in soil are hard enough to lay micro scratches in steel.

You might try and measure headspace on some factory ammunition, you may ne surprised at the variation you will find.
Let us know more as you progress.

 

[RankAmateur]

Here you go @Wiliamr

I zero out the calipers and measured it.

View attachment 394162

@RankAmateur I think that's what I'm going to try. I'm going to bump the headspace back 0.002 from 1.458 to 1.456 and see if I get the same reading like you said. I will see if I could get it done tonight, and go out Sunday.

OP, this is NOT a criticism, just gentle coaching. I'm very interested in the results you get when you remeasure the rounds you shoot on Sunday. Good luck! Handloaders can be pretty technical when discussing the techniques/statistics/measurements of the practice. Headspace is the distance from the bolt face to the structure that limits the round from moving any further into the barrel. For some (most?) pistol/rifle chambers with straight walls, that forward limiter is the case mouth. On bottleneck rounds, it is angled cut in the chamber corresponding to the case shoulder, which is measured to a midpoint with a specific diameter (the shoulder datum). So, when you are sizing the cartridge brass, you aren't bumping the headspace (that doesn't change and is a characteristic of your rifle's chamber), you are bumping the shoulder of the case back.

The Hornady tool attached to your calipers is just fine (and you can use bullet inserts to measure cartridge base to ogive on loaded cartridges too, which is perhaps the most important length measurement for precision). Using that tool, you can pretty accurately measure the amount of shoulder bump you're getting with your sizing die, so good to go.

Again, good luck!

 

[Wiliamr]

What gun are you shooting the rounds through.an AR or a bolt gun. If it is an AR, you do not have to worry so much about headspace as much as overall length and jump to the leade. Bolt gun, yes headspace is a good thing to hover over.

 

[MrRobot]

Thank you, yes it's a AR I'm doing the reloading for. I didn't have a chance to go yesterday since I had to spend some time with family. My wife is sick so had to take care of her.

Maybe after work tonight i will head out and see. One thing I did last night was check the finish product with

Lyman Ammo Checker Cartridge Gauge ​

two of the rounds just didn't slide all the way down. I believe I could still shot them if it's not to much.

I will see tonight keep you guys posted.

 

[RankAmateur]

Thank you, yes it's a AR I'm doing the reloading for. I didn't have a chance to go yesterday since I had to spend some time with family. My wife is sick so had to take care of her.

Maybe after work tonight i will head out and see. One thing I did last night was check the finish product with

Lyman Ammo Checker Cartridge Gauge ​

two of the rounds just didn't slide all the way down. I believe I could still shot them if it's not to much.

I will see tonight keep you guys posted.

Lyman gauges are cut to minimum chamber dimensions - doesn't necessarily correspond to YOUR chamber. If ammo fits in the ammo gauge you can be pretty sure it will fit in almost any rifle, but if ammo doesn't fit gauge easily that doesn't necessarily mean the cartridge is too big.

 

[MrRobot]

Update on my results.

Took some time Sunday to head out to the range. Just now I de-prim the ammo I created last week.

After measuring about 15 rounds. Almost all of them came back to 1.459... My original first time fire was 1.458.5

The load I create was

1.456 - headspace
1.752 = Trim size
55 = grain jacket bullet
23.5 = H335 powder
2.252 = OAL

I guess I must of done something write since everything seem to fire good.

What do you guys think about this load? Mostly it will be for plinking.