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Red Flag law discussion

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  • busykngt

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    The lack of “due process” protection regarding Red Flag laws is the one hurdle I have yet to see handled successfully by these type laws.

    There’s just a basic incongruity / incompatibility with the old English law concept of being “innocent until proven guilty”. These laws inherently assume guilty until you can prove yourself innocent. These laws are unconstitutional at best and even un-American in nature. Which is why I think Cornyn is a FUDD; not to mention being the author of the ‘enhanced background check’ bill of a couple years ago (thankfully, it wasn’t passed). For all of Cornyn’s “pro gun”, pro 2A PR propaganda, he’s one I’m glad to see won’t be running again.
     

    Axxe55

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    The lack of “due process” protection regarding Red Flag laws is the one hurdle I have yet to see handled successfully by these type laws.

    There’s just a basic incongruity / incompatibility with the old English law concept of being “innocent until proven guilty”. These laws inherently assume guilty until you can prove yourself innocent. These laws are unconstitutional at best and even un-American in nature. Which is why I think Cornyn is a FUDD; not to mention being the author of the ‘enhanced background check’ bill of a couple years ago (thankfully, it wasn’t passed). For all of Cornyn’s “pro gun”, pro 2A PR propaganda, he’s one I’m glad to see won’t be running again.
    except with red flag laws you're guilty until you prove your innocence because there is no due process
     

    DougC

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    From the T-Rex channel a worthwhile discussion of what's wrong with red flag laws, not just from the perspective of TN.

    There have been a lot of Red Flag Laws passed in the USA since 2018, and Tennessee is being being pressured to adopt one next month. What are some of the similarities between different states' legislation, and what are some problems that should be discussed?

     

    DougC

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    AmmoLand: We fixed Bill Lee’s “tweet” about Red Flag laws
     

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    DougC

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    From AmmoLand blog; bottom line University of Michigan says more research is needed on red flag laws. Why? A waste of money and time. They violate one's constitutional protection of due process from the get-go.

    Properly implemented firearm injury prevention policies can play a role in preventing gun-related injuries and death, but more research is needed, according to a policy review led by the University of Michigan Institute for Firearm Injury Prevention.

    It identified challenges in implementing these laws, also known as extreme risk protection order (ERPO) laws. Among those challenges are uncertainty among law enforcement, attorneys and courts over such things as which court has jurisdiction over a petition and the time commitment involved in finding the individuals, serving the order and confiscating weapons, according to the study. Researchers also found a lack of knowledge about the laws among potential petitioners and those unwilling to ask a judge for an order.
     

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    Axxe55

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    Lost in East Texas Elhart Texas
    From AmmoLand blog; bottom line University of Michigan says more research is needed on red flag laws. Why? A waste of money and time. They violate one's constitutional protection of due process from the get-go.

    Properly implemented firearm injury prevention policies can play a role in preventing gun-related injuries and death, but more research is needed, according to a policy review led by the University of Michigan Institute for Firearm Injury Prevention.

    It identified challenges in implementing these laws, also known as extreme risk protection order (ERPO) laws. Among those challenges are uncertainty among law enforcement, attorneys and courts over such things as which court has jurisdiction over a petition and the time commitment involved in finding the individuals, serving the order and confiscating weapons, according to the study. Researchers also found a lack of knowledge about the laws among potential petitioners and those unwilling to ask a judge for an order.
    on the very face of how those laws are written they are unconstitutional and violate 5th amendment rights because rhere is no judicial due process!
     

    bbbass

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    Sep 2, 2020
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    on the very face of how those laws are written they are unconstitutional and violate 5th amendment rights because rhere is no judicial due process!

    I agree.

    Unfortunately, where they've been challenged in various states, they've been ruled constitutional in that there is due process of the writ/warrant/whatever going in front of a judge. I disagree that this is constitutional due process, in that the "defendant" is not present for the process, does not get to testify on their own behalf or call witnesses, and it is well known that every stinkin judge rubber stamps the complaint due to fear of liability if the defendant does do something violent with a gun.

    Problem 2: It's pre-crime punishment. In our system, we don't get prosecuted til we've actually done the bad deed ie broken a law. This is more like "The Minority Report".

    Problem 3: Where do your guns go? They go in a locked and sealed climate controlled vault til you can get them back?

    Problem 4: In most states, the loss of guns is for a year, then you have to petition the court that you've been a good boy. But the court can extend the period if they deem.

    Problem 5: In many states, these laws have been modified to allow almost any testimony/complaint for any party whatsoever in a Red Flag/ERPO... leaving gun owners vulnerable to bad intentions of relatives/neighbors/exwives/etc.

    Sorry, didnt read the whole thread. Just sayin'.


    bb
     

    DougC

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    From the T-Rex channel a worthwhile discussion of what's wrong with red flag laws, not just from the perspective of TN.

    There have been a lot of Red Flag Laws passed in the USA since 2018, and Tennessee is being being pressured to adopt one next month. What are some of the similarities between different states' legislation, and what are some problems that should be discussed?


    From the Bearing Arms blog;

    After days of finger-pointing and blame-shifting between House and Senate leadership, the special session called by Tennessee Gov. Bill Lee in response to the Covenant School shootings came to an unexpected end on Tuesday after leaders in both chambers struck a deal. The state Senate, which had closed its committees after passing four pieces of legislation, was the clear winner in the negotiations, with the House approving the bills adopted by the Senate and their counterparts voting to concur with the minor changes made in the House.
     

    DougC

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    Feb 22, 2021
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    From the T-Rex channel a worthwhile discussion of what's wrong with red flag laws, not just from the perspective of TN.

    There have been a lot of Red Flag Laws passed in the USA since 2018, and Tennessee is being being pressured to adopt one next month. What are some of the similarities between different states' legislation, and what are some problems that should be discussed?



    Last week the Tennessee legislature ended their special session on public safety without passing any gun control bills. Why is this a big victory, and why does it matter for the rest of the country?




    p.s. The Nashville shooter's manifesto still has not be released to public. Probably doesn't fit the narrative
     

    Whistler

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    My problem with red flag laws, aside from due process, is they aren't about the individual's mental health need and focus instead on firearms. I've yet to see one that prescribes or funds comprehensive medical process. Maybe it's me but that's pretty transparently about gun control and little to do with helping anyone.
     

    DougC

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    Feb 22, 2021
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    My problem with red flag laws, aside from due process, is they aren't about the individual's mental health need and focus instead on firearms. I've yet to see one that prescribes or funds comprehensive medical process. Maybe it's me but that's pretty transparently about gun control and little to do with helping anyone.
    You got it. It's all about control.
     

    DougC

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    Feb 22, 2021
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    Last week the Tennessee legislature ended their special session on public safety without passing any gun control bills. Why is this a big victory, and why does it matter for the rest of the country?




    p.s. The Nashville shooter's manifesto still has not be released to public. Probably doesn't fit the narrative


    From the Bearing Arms blog; TN Governor taking a pass on trying to get 'red flag' law.

    We will almost certainly still see some kind of Extreme Risk Protection Order legislation introduced when Tennessee lawmakers return to Nashville in early January, but any proposal is likely to come from the Democratic minority in the legislature, not allies of Gov. Bill Lee.

    Lee had pushed for what he called a temporary mental health order of protection ahead of the special session he called in response to the Covenant School shootings earlier this year, but the idea was roundly panned by the Republican majority. When the special session kicked off in August, Lee’s proposal wasn’t among the topics of discussion, and now he says it won’t be a part of his proposals to lawmakers going forward.
     

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