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  • Bprifle

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    I was listening to the show a few weeks back when you guys mentioned the typical scenario:

    Chl holder in a place that is getting robbed......

    I believe referencing the House of Pies that was robbed the night before.
    Everyone agreed that they wouldn't get involved unless they had to.

    That made sense to me at the time. It came out a few days later that said robber was coming straight from murdering someone for their car. That kind of muddled things in my mind. How would you know any different. Give the bad guy the benefit of the doubt?

    These guys came in and fired rounds into the ceiling right off the bat unless I'm mistaken.

    For me that would settle a few things:
    Yep its real
    Yep its loaded
    Yep they're willing to pull a trigger

    Once the mental hurdles are cleared
    I would think that I would rather be drawing before the business end was pointed at me rather than after. I would love to get some input from guys like yourselves.

    Guns were just for hunting until I moved from a small east Tx town with no real crime straight into a bad Houston hood. Now it is starting to seem like this type situation will be a when rather than an if for me.
     

    benenglish

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    Now it is starting to seem like this type situation will be a when rather than an if for me.
    Don't let your brain slip into that sort of negative mindset. No matter where in the U.S. you live, the odds are strong you will never need your daily carry. It's most assuredly not a matter of "when"; it's a matter of keeping your eyes open and your brain engaged. I've lived in *very* bad places and spent time working in worse and I know how easy it is to feel that bad things are inevitable. But they just aren't.

    By all means carry; the stakes are too high. But don't expect to need your gun. Expect that your heightened situational awareness will help you see or feel something coming. Then be elsewhere.
     

    Captain

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    I agree better to draw before their weapon is pointed at you

    sent from the Gulf of Mexico
     

    NOLA Jack

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    Don't know how you guys handle things over there , but if you're ever in New Orleans and you run in and start shooting while I'm trying to get my key lime on, expect to catch some hot ones.

    :twin:
     
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    vmax

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    Don't let your brain slip into that sort of negative mindset. No matter where in the U.S. you live, the odds are strong you will never need your daily carry. It's most assuredly not a matter of "when"; it's a matter of keeping your eyes open and your brain engaged. I've lived in *very* bad places and spent time working in worse and I know how easy it is to feel that bad things are inevitable. But they just aren't.

    By all means carry; the stakes are too high. But don't expect to need your gun. Expect that your heightened situational awareness will help you see or feel something coming. Then be elsewhere.

    I just don't know about that part. If you carry you should expect to use it. I have used Jeff Cooper's color codes for years before I knew about them. They just define and identify the level of awareness. I stay in Yellow when out in publc.

    you know the old saying,.. "always be coureous and polite and have a plan to kill everyone in the roon"

    I can be out in public and have a good time eating in resturants or shopping, but I'm always watching for a threat as well
     

    itchin

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    Its very hard to guess. Are there multiple armed robbers? Do you have a clear path to fire? Its easy to sit here on the internet a.d say how you'd Swiss cheese a bad guy. If you've ever been in a situation where you gotta get physical with a big guy or multiple guys its similar. You'll be shaking with fear and adrenaline. I had a guy smashing in my car with a baseball bat and trying to take my head off. When I got to my weapon I had to force myself to start firing. I fired 11 rounds and missed him every time. If you've never shot at a person its easy to say how easy it is.
     

    NOLA Jack

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    It should be obvious that a lot of factors should play into that decision, but if you've got the means and the ability to stop some cashier from getting killed over $50 I think you certainly should. If your strategy is based on hoping they dont come have an interaction with you, after their interaction with the cashier, I don't see why you're carrying a gun.
     

    Charlie

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    I gotta' agree with Ben. I don't go anywhere "expecting" to need my gun. I have it on my waist "if" I need it. I never forget where it is or that I have it. I believe if someone "expects" to need something or "expects" something to happen, chances of it happening (in their own mind) greatly increase.
     

    benenglish

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    But don't expect to need your gun.

    I just don't know about that part. If you carry you should expect to use it....

    you know the old saying,.. "always be courteous and polite and have a plan to kill everyone in the room"

    I can be out in public and have a good time eating in restaurants or shopping, but I'm always watching for a threat as well
    I think we're both in agreement. It's not about the odds; it's about the risk. An expectation that "If I must, I am able to shoot" is a prerequisite to sensibly carrying a firearm.

    However, the OP expressed a different sentiment, one along the lines of "One of these days, I feel sure I'm going to have to shoot somebody." That's not a good mindset. From a purely statistical point of view, it's simply wrong. Most normal people who don't carry a gun as a job requirement should expect that they can carry for the rest of their lives without having to shoot anyone. Thats the way the numbers shake out.

    Always be alert, aware, and ready; sure. But being resigned to bad things happening tends to be self-fulfilling. That is the attitude I was addressing when I said "don't expect" to need a gun. Expect to be smart enough to not need a gun.

    But have one if things go to hell.

    I really think our respective statements are consistent, even if we're concentrating on different parts of the question.

    Can we agree that the pessimism of the OP is not a good idea? That's really all I was trying to communicate.
     

    SIG_Fiend

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    Stated another way: Do you really want to possibly get killed over a few hundred dollars of someone else' money, if nothing else is at risk?

    If someone's life is at risk, that's one thing, but if it's only a few bucks and the criminal(s) are not giving any indicator that they are actually going to kill someone, why would you risk losing your life over it? Seriously. It's not your bank, gas station, not your money, etc. In some situations, especially if you're out of sight and have the opportunity to do so, maybe having your gun in hand, just in case, might be a smart thing (the fastest "draw" as they say). Also, keep in mind, this isn't even taking into account presence of loved ones. I'm purely talking about being in public or private businesses. With loved ones and friends, there are of course other concerns, and the "right" decision might be completely different.

    I think the most important takeaway here is in learning to better read mannerisms and other potential threat indicators, to hopefully be able to see things as early on as possible, and get the absolute best read on a situation and the people involved to make the best decision you can. That idiot retired LEO in Florida apparently didn't do too well in that regard, and killed someone over a bag of popcorn. There are countless other examples of similarly ridiculous situations. Ask yourself if you're ready to end your life or any others, including possible innocent lives, over a few bucks of money that isn't yours, leaving your family without a husband, brother, son, wife, sister, daughter. Don't try to be a "hero", just try to be pretty damn sure you are making the only decision you can possibly make given the circumstances and your own personal morals/ethics.

    One other thing. We can game and analyze scenarios until we're blue in the face. We can literally spend a lifetime doing that, considering every possible scenario...and then the one time you are actually faced with a threat, it could be an entirely different scenario you never even considered before. It is good to do these things to some degree, to develop the mental processes and mindset about many things, but again, that alone is impossible to do to prepare for every possible situation. I am reminded of a principle of competition shooting that can be very difficult to achieve, and can make all the difference between winning and loosing. It's awareness. Simply being acutely aware of your surroundings and everything that is occurring so that you can read the variables and determine the appropriate course of action. To some degree, I think people get far too caught up in scenarios, and need to shift some of that mental effort towards simply being aware​ and learning to read the environment.
     

    MPA1988

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    Situational awareness, proper risk assessment, and effective judgement as to whether to take action or not, of course assuming you are not in imminent bodily harm, are learned behaviors acquired through countless hours of training. Remember, private citizens are not usually trained in threat assessment and evasive defensive shooting techniques. Hell, most CHL lack basic understanding of pistol shooting, and over time, fail to keep current with changes in gun laws and the use of deadly force.
     

    Captain

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    But in the end, I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

    sent from the Gulf of Mexico
     

    Whiskey_Rocka_Rolla

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    I was listening to the show a few weeks back when you guys mentioned the typical scenario:

    Chl holder in a place that is getting robbed......

    I believe referencing the House of Pies that was robbed the night before.
    Everyone agreed that they wouldn't get involved unless they had to.

    That made sense to me at the time. It came out a few days later that said robber was coming straight from murdering someone for their car. That kind of muddled things in my mind. How would you know any different. Give the bad guy the benefit of the doubt?

    These guys came in and fired rounds into the ceiling right off the bat unless I'm mistaken.

    For me that would settle a few things:
    Yep its real
    Yep its loaded
    Yep they're willing to pull a trigger

    Once the mental hurdles are cleared
    I would think that I would rather be drawing before the business end was pointed at me rather than after. I would love to get some input from guys like yourselves.

    Guns were just for hunting until I moved from a small east Tx town with no real crime straight into a bad Houston hood. Now it is starting to seem like this type situation will be a when rather than an if for me.

    I eat at this place regularly, and usually sit at the counter cause I am usually alone. And it's usually around the same time this robbery occurred, in that same location. If I were stuffing my face with pancakes and bacon, then suddenly heard gunshots behind me, I think I'd have been scared absolutely shitless and compelled to comply if I couldn't escape to a safe place. The thing is, no matter how bad ass you are, your drawstroke is probably not faster than a murderer's trigger finger. Once they've got their gun in their hand and yours is still in your holster with a fork in your bacon grease coated hand, you are at a severe disadvantage. Don't get me wrong though, if I had a split second to get my gun out of the holster, the only thing I'd have handed over to them when they came to my table would be a few hundred grains of hot lead.

    I'd started to become slightly complacent of the dangers around me till that day. Grabbing my gun before I leave the house every day starting to seem like just a routine (been carrying about 2 years). Which if you aren't constantly vigilant, really isn't going to do you much good. Lesson learned. Now I am back to sitting facing the entrance of every restaurant I go to. I think I'll keep it that way. I'd not fire a gun in defense if I couldn't get a VERY CLEAR shot of the attacker, meaning my chances of hitting a bystander were pretty much zero.

    It's not so much that I'd rather shoot someone than hand over a few bucks and a cell phone, it's more about the firearm I am also carrying, that I REALLY do not want to be robbed of, for more reasons than I could possibly name.

    I eat at HOP sometimes at night when I can't sleep (always been an insomniac) and had thought about going that night. Glad I didn't.

    Welcome to Houston. Since I've moved here in 2007 there have been quite a few times where if the timing had been just a little different, I'd have been a victim of and/or a witness to, a seriously violent crime. Thankfully, I have always been lucky enough to have not been around when they occur.

    But in all honesty, violence can happen anywhere, any time. Doesn't have to be a big city, it can even happen in Rainbow and Unicorn-Ville, USA.
     
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    Shotgun Jeremy

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    I've thought about this a few times-usually when I'm in the credit union or at a gas station. If I walked in on a guy with a gun, and he pointed it at me and started barking orders, or if I had someone come in behind me and put me in that position-damn right I'm acting like anyone else and playing along. If it looks like he's about to make off with a pretty big amount of cash or he's about to hurt/kill another person, then as soon as his attention is off of me, and I can position myself for a quick movement-I'm gonna try to take him out. I've become pretty accurate with my M&P that I think I would have a good chance at hitting center mass as long as I was presented a good opportunity to go for it without being caught in the act.
     

    Whiskey_Rocka_Rolla

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    There is definitely no "one size fits all" response to a violent encounter. At some point, using your best judgement is the only thing you can do. If resisting has a greater chance of getting you or someone else killed, than simply complying, complying might be the best answer. At the same time, if you can safely (meaning without putting your own life or someone else's in even greater danger) stop the threat, by all means....stop the threat. As for situational awareness I'll admit I feel I need to be on much higher alert when in an urban area simply because of the number of people around me. In a small town, I can scan a parking lot or inside of a public building, and chances are, 5 mins later, the same people that I saw on the first scan, will be the same people there. But in Houston, for example, if I walk into the mall and scan my surroundings, 5 mins later if I scan them again I'll be scanning a whole new group of people who weren't standing there 5 mins ago. If that makes any sense..

    This situation at HOP would have had 3 different possible outcomes if I'd been in there at that time.

    1. I'm sitting facing the kitchen, back to the door, and am surprised by the sound of gunfire behind me, in which case I'd have pretty much been helpless to defend myself against the armed thugs

    2. Sitting at the edge of the counter, entrance to kitchen VERY close by, I'd have ran into the kitchen and out the backdoor if possible. If not, I'd have laid on my back with my gun up in the air waiting for them to come back there, in which case, I'd have shot their sorry asses.

    3. Sitting at a booth or table (which I don't do when I go in restaurants alone) and pull a Pulp Fiction on them when they came to get my money. Only instead of talking to them, I'd have shot them multiple times.

    This is just what I imagine, of course I've never been in that situation so I can't speak from personal experience. This is also what I'd imagine only if I were in there alone. If I had a family member and/or friend with me, keeping them safe however possible, would obviously be the top priority.
     
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    gcmj45acp

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    Every situation is different. No one at House of Pies knew that guy had already killed someone but, if he starts out with bullets flying, that's a different situation from simply waving a gun and demanding money with no shots fired.

    Here's the thing, I'm not going to be they guy who tells you to "skin that smoke wagon" and go to work at every situation. We are all pretty conservative in our views on the use of force and deadly force. Outside Jason, who is actually a cop, we view guns as being a tool to use for our personal protection and those of our friends/family if they are with us and nothing more. A CHL is not a badge and the fact you may be armed shouldn't be seen as a reason to act.

    If four guys come in with AKs and all I've got is my Glock 19 with four mags and no one else around, even if they are shooting up the place, I won't necessarily engage them. That's just me. While, I'm not waiting for a gun to be pointed at me, my decision may come down to my confidence in my ability to put down a threat. If I think all I'm doing is inviting four AKs to shoot at me, then I may be looking harder to find an exit than a gun fight.

    It may sound cold but, my view is that all the other adults in the room had the same opportunity to make the decision to go armed like I did. It's not my fault they made the wrong decision and can't defend themselves. It's not my job to make up for that. If they benefit from my actions, so be it but, I'm not in the business of defending them and I don't expect them to do it for me either. Your moral compass may steer you differently.


    I was listening to the show a few weeks back when you guys mentioned the typical scenario:

    Chl holder in a place that is getting robbed......

    I believe referencing the House of Pies that was robbed the night before.
    Everyone agreed that they wouldn't get involved unless they had to.

    That made sense to me at the time. It came out a few days later that said robber was coming straight from murdering someone for their car. That kind of muddled things in my mind. How would you know any different. Give the bad guy the benefit of the doubt?

    These guys came in and fired rounds into the ceiling right off the bat unless I'm mistaken.

    For me that would settle a few things:
    Yep its real
    Yep its loaded
    Yep they're willing to pull a trigger

    Once the mental hurdles are cleared
    I would think that I would rather be drawing before the business end was pointed at me rather than after. I would love to get some input from guys like yourselves.

    Guns were just for hunting until I moved from a small east Tx town with no real crime straight into a bad Houston hood. Now it is starting to seem like this type situation will be a when rather than an if for me.
     
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