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M1 30cal ball ammo vs 30-06 ammo

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  • TipBledsoe

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    Educate me please:

    1) The M1903 and the M1 Garand both shoot 30cal a la 30-06-ish ammo correct?

    2) I say "30-06-ish" because i understand (wrongfully?) that there is a difference between military M1 ball ammo vs standard civilian 30-06 Springfield ammo - is this true?

    3) Further, I understand that a modern 30-06 hunting rifle can shoot either of those two 30 caliber rounds, but a M1 Garand is not safe to shoot modern 30-06 ammo - correct?

    4) [Edit, added text] Is there a similar situation (as described in #3) comparing 7.62 NATO to 308?

    5) Was there ever a M1A (civilian varient of M14) that shot 30-06 instead of 308?
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    Texasjack

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    .30-06 ammo was originally developed for the Springfield M1903 (originally .30-03, but improved to the current .30-06) and the caliber was subsequently used for the M1 Garand (and other firearms). You can shoot the military ammo or the civilian ammo in all .30-06 rifles, including the M1 Garand. As for shooting the M1 with non-military ammo, it's not a safety issue, it's an issue with the rifle mechanism cycling properly. Normally it's not a problem, but if reloading the '06, there are specific loads that are the best ones for the Garand. The mechanism has a range of loads that work well, but outside that range things don't necessarily cycle reliably.

    The M14 was changed to the .308 because the shorter case was easier to cycle in the Garand style system, and slightly cheaper to manufacture. Springfield does not list .30-06 as an available caliber.
     

    Maverick44

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    M2 ball is lower pressure than most commercial 30-06. A 1903 or a 1917 is not going to care about the difference. An M1 Garand will. It was designed to be used with M2 ball, and hotter ammo could damage the op rod. You can buy a ported gas plug for an M1 Garand so that it can function with commercial ammo, or you can either buy M2 ball (several manufacturers sell M2 ball spec ammo specifically for the M1 Garand), or reload it. I believe some manuals even have M2 ball specific loads listed.







    As for a M1A in 30-06, I don't think there has been one made before. However, the M1 Garand went through some experimentation after WWII (and I think even a little bit during the war) to add a detachable mag, which was the basis of the M14. Good luck finding one of those though.
     

    Tactical Panda

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    Reloading is really your best bet for the M1 right now. M2 ball is starting to dry up, and commercial M1 spec ammo is expensive when it can be found. I bought the ported plug from Garand Gear, but have yet to try it. Maybe I'll give it ago when I run through my surplus stock. Another option is to re-barrel to .308. If you plan to reload, I recommend the Hornady Manuel as it has specific "service rifle" load data. Attached is an old article from the American Rifleman which also has some good reloading data and tips.
     

    Attachments

    • Reloading for the M1.pdf
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    Moonpie

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    Educate me please:

    1) The M1903 and the M1 Garand both shoot 30cal a la 30-06-ish ammo correct?
    Yes, both shot the 30 Gov't 06 round.
    2) I say "30-06-ish" because i understand (wrongfully?) that there is a difference between military M1 ball ammo vs standard civilian 30-06 Springfield ammo - is this true?
    Yes.
    Original USGI 30Gov't06 ammunition was loaded to about 2500-2550fps. Modern ammunition is "hotter". Usually 2700-2800fps
    Modern ammo is loaded with different types of powder. The result is the pressure peak of the burning powder lasts longer than the original military loading. This is fine except when using the M1 Garand. The extended pressure peak causes the op-rod on the M1 to bend or kink. Once the op-rod is damaged you're screwed as it can not be repaired. It must be replaced, by someone who knows how to fit it.

    3) Further, I understand that a modern 30-06 hunting rifle can shoot either of those two 30 caliber rounds, but a M1 Garand is not safe to shoot modern 30-06 ammo - correct?4
    Correct.
    Any modern gun can safely fire either ammo.

    4) [Edit, added text] Is there a similar situation (as described in #3) comparing 7.62 NATO to 308?
    Not that I am aware of.

    5) Was there ever a M1A (civilian varient of M14) that shot 30-06 instead of 308?
    I have seen a couple of One-of custom made M1 Garands fitted out to use box magazines. They used the Browning B.A.R. mags. As far as I know these were never anything but custom made.
     

    Dawico

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    7.62 Nato and 308 Win are the same. Period. Don't let anyone tell you any different.

    True the specs are a little different but not enough to matter as long as the ammo is loaded within SAAMI specs.

    The Garand either needs lighter loaded ammo or an adjustable gas plug as stated above. Hornady has service ammo loads in their reloading manual.

    Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk
     

    zackmars

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    Ensure your gun is properly lubricated, and you have a good recoil spring (i am partial to orion7), and you will have no issues shooting loads less than 180 grains, without resorting to an adjustable gas plug.

    Some mis info in this thread. The M1 was NOT designed around the M2 ball, but M1 ball, which had a 173gr bullet going about 2700 feet per second.

    As the M1 garand was adopted, so too was the M2 ball, due to safety issues on training ranges. M2 ball was simply a modernized version of the M1906 bullet, and featured a 150gr bullet with a *minimum* velocity of 2,740, i have chronographed several lots of ww2 and korean war M2 ball pushing 28 and 2900 fps.
     

    Darqhelmet

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    lyman 49th and Hornady 9th.
     

    zackmars

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    PinnedandRecessed

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    Straight from the CMP.

    WARNING!

    Dear CMP Family,

    The CMP advises to not use .30/06 ammunition in M1 Garands, 1903s, and 1903A3s that is loaded beyond 50,000 CUP and has a bullet weight more than 172-174gr. These rifles are at least 70 years old and were not designed for max loads and super heavy bullets. Always wear hearing and eye protection when firing an M1 Garand, 1903 and/or 1903A3 rifle.

    This warning is an update/addition to the Ammunition section in the Read This First manual enclosed with each rifle shipment (M1 Garand manual-page 6 and M1903 manual-page 10).

    Civilian Marksmanship Program
     

    zackmars

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    Straight from the CMP.

    WARNING!

    Dear CMP Family,

    The CMP advises to not use .30/06 ammunition in M1 Garands, 1903s, and 1903A3s that is loaded beyond 50,000 CUP and has a bullet weight more than 172-174gr. These rifles are at least 70 years old and were not designed for max loads and super heavy bullets. Always wear hearing and eye protection when firing an M1 Garand, 1903 and/or 1903A3 rifle.

    This warning is an update/addition to the Ammunition section in the Read This First manual enclosed with each rifle shipment (M1 Garand manual-page 6 and M1903 manual-page 10).

    Civilian Marksmanship Program

    Also keep in mind hardly anyone uses CUP to measure pressure anymore, and lots of people used to use 'CUP' and 'PSI' interchangeably.

    There is also no way to convert CUP to PSI (or vice versa. However my understanding is that with the .30-06 Springfield, 50,000 CUP is pretty close to 60,000 PSI
     
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