M-16: A Bureaucratic Horror Story Why the rifles jammed

[IndyDave1776]

The M16 was not entirely blameless, the Edgewater buffer was completely ineffective, and Colt was not doing a great job at properly reaming chambers.

US Ord's decision to use the incorrect powder, which was out of spec even for the caliber it was originally meant for turned a lot of "a issues" into "the issue".

SA became the scariest thing on earth, a government agency trying to justify its existence.

My guess is that those issues would have been identified and rectified in a reasonable time, as is common with weapons systems not previously used in combat, rather than the rifle being stacked with contrived problems and turned into a complete cluster **** as was the case.

 

[baboon]

I am satisfied that there is a special place in Hell for McNamara.

I was a little kid during the Vietnam war. My dad worked maintenance in an Army Ammunition Plant. I can still hear him mofoing McNamara and a whole slew of others from behind the paper with the news on the idiot box!

 

[Bamban]

I hated that plastic .22 caliber bean shooter! I had to pay for one after smashing it against the gun tub and throwing it in the river.
Nothing but a piss-ant hose!
The M14 was so much better ... BUT the M1 was a real beast!
Pop a zip with a .30-06 ... game over! Sure it was just 8 shot clips but if you lined up Charlie you could get more than one... at a distance too!
An M1D NM rifle could and would get the job done... No More poke and hope... or spray and hope for the best?
I learned to aim for anything wearing brown leather.
Now ,,, A TWIN .50 M2 that was a serious mother!

My Dad was a trooper with 26th Cavalry Regiment in the PI. Little known fact, the 26th Horse Cavalry received their M1 Garand just in time to familiarize and qualify with them before the Japanese came.

During the last days in Bataan when firefights were up close and personal in some sections. All Dad mentioned when we were out fishing - when you plug a Jap in the chest with the 06 all you can hear is gurgle.

He carried another M1 when he went to Korea in 1950.

Sadly, I never recorded the S/Ns of his M1 and 1911 when he mentioned them to me years before he passed.

 

[Mad John]

The before and after of Hue was unbelievable.

Circumstances and situation changed rapidly along with rules of engagement. was at Quang Tri when it fell in70. We burned supplies and patrol boats then evacuated to Cua Viet. Mustered out and given choice of coasts duty. I went home for about three days got shit on by people that were no longer my friends. Requested foreign service on a Destroyer in the North Atlantic and did not come home again for four years. Then got pissed off again and reenlisted for six more years. I rarely even today go home . Nobody gives a damn and they do not know me.
Now I COLLECT GUNS!!! LMAO!

 

[Mad John]

My Dad was a trooper with 26th Cavalry Regiment in the PI. Little known fact, the 26th Horse Cavalry received their M1 Garand just in time to familiarize and qualify with them before the Japanese came.

During the last days in Bataan when firefights were up close and personal in some sections. All Dad mentioned when we were out fishing - when you plug a Jap in the chest with the 06 all you can hear is gurgle.

He carried another M1 when he went to Korea in 1950.

Sadly, I never recorded the S/Ns of his M1 and 1911 when he mentioned them to me years before he passed.

My Dad was a trooper with 26th Cavalry Regiment in the PI. Little known fact, the 26th Horse Cavalry received their M1 Garand just in time to familiarize and qualify with them before the Japanese came.

During the last days in Bataan when firefights were up close and personal in some sections. All Dad mentioned when we were out fishing - when you plug a Jap in the chest with the 06 all you can hear is gurgle.

He carried another M1 when he went to Korea in 1950.

Sadly, I never recorded the S/Ns of his M1 and 1911 when he mentioned them to me years before he passed.

The Garand has a distinctive sound just like an AK has its own sound. I know the impact sound of a .30-06 ... that sickening wet THUD will make you smile!
Always shoot the ones with brown leather first! "CHINESE"
Shiny Black Leather was not so common God damned Russian Advisors!
Welcome Home Brother!
US Navy 1970 thru 1981

 

[IndyDave1776]

The Garand has a distinctive sound just like an AK has its own sound. I know the impact sound of a .30-06 ... that sickening wet THUD will make you smile!
Always shoot the ones with brown leather first! "CHINESE"
Shiny Black Leather was not so common God damned Russian Advisors!
Welcome Home Brother!
US Navy 1970 thru 1981

I haven't heard it myself (and my dad wouldn't talk about it) but the only good communist is s dead one.

 

[Mad John]

My guess is that those issues would have been identified and rectified in a reasonable time, as is common with weapons systems not previously used in combat, rather than the rifle being stacked with contrived problems and turned into a complete cluster **** as was the case.

Some bureaucrat was making MONEY!

 

[A1Oni]

The M16 would of been fine if they didn't screw with the powder and didn't tell troops that it was "self cleaning" among other smaller things that lead to issues during the war in Vietnam, but of course you have those guys coping about the M14 which was outdated when it went out the door.

 

[Surplus Guy]

Thank you guys for your service..

 

[Axxe55]

The M16 would of been fine if they didn't screw with the powder and didn't tell troops that it was "self cleaning" among other smaller things that lead to issues during the war in Vietnam, but of course you have those guys coping about the M14 which was outdated when it went out the door.

Care to explain why the M14 was out-dated when it went out the door?

And if it's so out-dated as you say, why is the M14 still be used to some extent by several branches of the military currently?

 

[karlac]

One of the reasons I midnight requisitioned an M79 and buckshot rounds.
Although it didn't lighten the load, LRP'S made up for it.

Was a FO with a ARVN unit for the first part of my tour, and the only American, and being the only one who knew exactly where we were 24/7 and who could call in American Arty and Fast Movers, my RTO would have carried a horseshoe anvil if asked.

That and unless I was in a chopper, operated on compass, walking rounds, or calling in Willy Peter on grid lines, so often couldn't see far enough to use a rifle.

Those who had to carry the M16 at that time were careful not fill the magazine ...

 

[A1Oni]

Care to explain why the M14 was out-dated when it went out the door?

And if it's so out-dated as you say, why is the M14 still be used to some extent by several branches of the military currently?

Well for one the idea of giving the M1 garand a box magazine wasnt a wild concept considering they wanted to do it near the end of WW2 and the italians literally did that better with the BM59, sure military snipers might use it as a designated marksman rifle in some roles but a .308 AR pattern rifle does that job better and the military loves running their stuff into the dirt but alas there will always be people who wear rose tinted glasses due to age or use in x theater or y theater in whatever war they fought in. of course this isnt including the far worse teething issues the M14 had like op rods breaking and QC issues that were arguably worse than the M16's introduction.

 

[Axxe55]

Well for one the idea of giving the M1 garand a box magazine wasnt a wild concept considering they wanted to do it near the end of WW2 and the italians literally did that better with the BM59, sure military snipers might use it as a designated marksman rifle in some roles but a .308 AR pattern rifle does that job better and the military loves running their stuff into the dirt but alas there will always be people who wear rose tinted glasses due to age or use in x theater or y theater in whatever war they fought in. of course this isnt including the far worse teething issues the M14 had like op rods breaking and QC issues that were arguably worse than the M16's introduction.

 

[A1Oni]

View attachment 265927

 

[DougC]

From The Atlantic magazine June 1981.

Some of of us seasoned citizens might recall the really bad initial problems with fielding the M-16 in Vietnam. I recall arriving in-country to join the 5th Marines, 1s Marine Division in 1967 and told very clearly not to say anything bad about the rifle as a new platoon leader. We had not heard of any problems with the rifle before leaving for Vietnam as for the most part we still used the M-14 in stateside units from 1965-67. At one point early in my training I used the M-1 Grand. After a few months my initial M-16 issue was replaced with a model with chrome chamber and bird-cage flash suppressor. My platoons did not experience the jamming problems explained in the article as cleaning supplies and attention to cleaning the rifle often took care of it before it became a problem.

And from YouTube channel 'Forgotten Weapons';

Who would have thought that 'plastic rifle made by Mattel' would still be an important rifle for 21st century warfighters.

My rifle history started with the M-14 at Marine Corps boot camp Parris Island in 1965 and then the M-16 in Vietnam in 1968. I missed the worst of the development problems lucky me. Now many Marines are getting the M-27 IAR rifle so here is some history of the first black rifle.

Here is a more current article about the rifle's initial problems experienced by Marines in Vietnam. "This is My Rifle" From the Hill Fights in Vietnam to Today" A history of the M-16 rifle. Originally published by and reprinted with permission from Leatherneck Magazine Oct 2021 issue.

 

[AKM47]

A late friend who taught me CQC was a LRRP in Vietnam, he was first issued the M-16, after the first 10rds the rifle jammed, after he cleared it he finished the mag

This happened so often that he captured a AK and used it until the CAR-15 was issued, he declined and used the AK through 3 tours

He had no problems with the AK what so ever

 

[DougC]

A late friend who taught me CQC was a LRRP in Vietnam, he was first issued the M-16, after the first 10rds the rifle jammed, after he cleared it he finished the mag

This happened so often that he captured a AK and used it until the CAR-15 was issued, he declined and used the AK through 3 tours

He had no problems with the AK what so ever

Yes, at the time the AK rifles were more reliable. US forces didn't have cleaning equipment in sufficient amount and know how to properly clean/lube gun. The M-16 got better with feedback and usage as well as AK guns.

 

[Tnhawk]

I enlisted in the Navy in February 1970 because I did not want to be "sniper bait" and my Draft # was "4" The Government had my number any way and being stupid I ended up on River Patrol at Quang Tri. However the Navy had some options and I dearly disliked that .22 caliber bean shooter. We had M-14s and M1 Garand rifles available. I chose the M1D Garand. I was laughed at for having an 8 shot rifle. I love the Garand still do (I got my first one for my 12th birthday) I grew up with it and a 1911. When laughed at I would just smile and simply explain that you do not merely wound Charlie with a .30-06! Chances were that he wouldn't be able to return fire!

I enlisted in 1969 to prevent being drafted. When the lottery came out in 1970 my number was 2. I trained at Ft Polk with the m-14, but carried a Mattel Wonder in Vietnam. I was lucky most of the problems were worked out by that time. I would always choose a 7.62 over a 5.56 when given a choice.

 

[Pistol Pete]

I was in the army, Nam 67/68. We had the early rifles, three prong flash hider but we did have forward assist. Luckily I was in the Cav, main weapon was the .50. Did have some experience with the M16, I was issued one early on, .45 became my personal weapon soon after arriving VN. My rifle worked the few times I fired it. Some of the rifles didn't work at all, were actually single shot, use a cleaning rod to push out the spent case. I believe our rifles were actually experimental tho no one told us that. The draft was going on so there was a plentiful supply of cannon fodder, so what if LBJ killed a bunch of us with faulty rifles. I hate his guts to this day and any other of his ilk.

 

[DougC]

So what came after the M-16? That would be the M16A1 and M16A2 versions starting in 1969. From the Small Arms Solutions YouTube channel here is a discussion of the next versions of the M-16. Special bonus: Listen to inventor of M-16, Eugene Stoner, discuss what he told the Marines and DOD about A1 and A2 good and bad.