Looking to build two home defense specific shotguns and can't decide...

[zackmars]

Maybe you should go back and re-read my last paragraph again.

I'd sure like to see you step up and disprove my statements. Get your best buddy to shoot you with some #8 birdshot at about twenty feet.

I'd also advise making out your last will and testament before attempting.

Please try and prove me wrong. I have done my own informal testing of birdshot, at close ranges, on various materials, some years ago. Simply because I too thought only buckshot or slugs were appropriate ammo for self defense usage. Changed my mind.

And if your shotgun happened to be loaded with birdshot shells, in the rare event you needed it to defend yourself, do think Mr. Bad guy is going to allow you time to change to buckshot?

I have heard probably most every reason against using birdshot over the last decade or more. If you still think I'm wrong, then by all means, prove me wrong.

Im not arguing that birdshot isn't lethal, if you had actually read what i posted you'd know that. However it is not consistent enough to bother counting on it outside of an absolute emergency

"I wouldn't step in front of it" is not an argument. You are smarter than that.

 

[satx78247]

Im not arguing that birdshot isn't lethal, if you had actually read what i posted you'd know that. However it is not consistent enough to bother counting on it outside of an absolute emergency

"I wouldn't step in front of it" is not an argument. You are smarter than that.

zackmars; All,

Let me ask you & every other unbeliever: HOW MANY shootings, where a shotgun was used in the shooting, have you been involved in, actually seen or investigated as a LEO or coroner?
(IF the answer is NONE or ONE, the unbeliever does NOT know what any shotgun blast does to a human body.)

At contact or "near contact" range, a deceased's head often EXPLODES & who the person was in life is sometimes almost impossible to recognize after a suicide or VERY close range homicide.
At ten feet, the wound from a shotgun was once described by an old-time TX Ranger as a "bloody rathole, about quarter to half-dollar size."
Otoh, down a long interior hallway of a house, the shot pattern may be 6 to 10 inches in diameter.
(The relatively small size of "short range" shotgun patterns is WHY so many people completely miss their "intended target" at typical self-defense or criminal incident ranges.)

yours, satx

 

[Axxe55]

Im not arguing that birdshot isn't lethal, if you had actually read what i posted you'd know that. However it is not consistent enough to bother counting on it outside of an absolute emergency

"I wouldn't step in front of it" is not an argument. You are smarter than that.

Like I said, please reread my last paragraph. I stipulated upfront that birdshot isn't as effective as buckshot for self defense. If you are faced with a home invader, and have to defend yourself, you are going to use whatever you have at that time.

I have heard probably every argument under the sun against birdshot, and I can counter just about any one of those.

Also, my end goal, and the only objective I have, is such a very rare event, that I would need to use my shotgun to defend myself and my family, is that we survived. If I get two rounds off, and still miss the intruder, and he runs off, my shotgun, and ammo performed exactly as needed and I count that as a win.

My only criteria is stopping the threat. Both more, nothing less. I'm looking to kill, to sound or to warn, but to stop the threat. If I fire and miss, and the bad guy runs off, the threat was stopped. End of story.

I think too many people get wrapped up in lethality of firearms used for self defense, and over ,think things way too much. I don't. Personally, I like to keep things as simple as possible.

 

[GoPappy]

Some people who argue against birdshot seem to forget that there ARE birdshot loads in between #2 buck and #8 birdshot.

 

[Charlie]

The only thing I've ever been shot with was a BB gun when I was about 12 yrs. old (+/-). It didn't really hurt but surely would have had I not been wearing a jacket/coat at the time.

 

[zackmars]

Itt we have people saying birdshot is a great choice for HD because of how lethal, and others say it is a great less lethal choice.

It doesn't matter how many videos demolition ranch does on it, how many autopsies you've seen, or how long you've been a cop.

There is zero reason to use birdshot for HD.

If in some scenario it's all you have, then use it, but you would be better off with the more appropriate load

 

[rotor]

Mossberg Maverick 88, security model, 12 g 5+1,cylinder bore, can shoot anything except 3 1/2", less than $200. Or they have a combo with 2 barrels, chokes, about $250 and can shoot clays. Number 4 buck indoors, 00 buck outdoors. I have 6 shotguns, this is the go to loaded and ready.

 

[satx78247]

Itt we have people saying birdshot is a great choice for HD because of how lethal, and others say it is a great less lethal choice.

It doesn't matter how many videos demolition ranch does on it, how many autopsies you've seen, or how long you've been a cop.

There is zero reason to use birdshot for HD.

If in some scenario it's all you have, then use it, but you would be better off with the more appropriate load

zackmars,

i note that you did NOT say what your PRACTICAL EXPERIENCE is with DEATH BY GUNFIRE, especially when a shotgun causes the death.

People, who have little or NO such actual experience, simply have NOTHING but uninformed OPINIONS & GUESSES to base their comments upon.

Btw, my home defense shotguns are loaded with #4 buckshot, as MY shotguns seem to pattern that load best.
(Shotguns vary a LOT in which load works BEST in that individual scattergun.)

yours, satx

 

[zackmars]

zackmars,

i note that you did NOT say what your PRACTICAL EXPERIENCE is with DEATH BY GUNFIRE, especially when a shotgun causes the death.

People, who have little or NO such actual experience, simply have NOTHING but uninformed OPINIONS & GUESSES to base their comments upon.

Btw, my home defense shotguns are loaded with #4 buckshot, as MY shotguns seem to pattern that load best.
(Shotguns vary a LOT in which load works BEST in that individual scattergun.)

yours, satx

Can you not read?

Refute ONE thing ive said. Use sources. Try not to hide behind some nonsense about seeing a dead body.

 

[satx78247]

Can you not read?

Refute ONE thing ive said. Use sources. Try not to hide behind some nonsense about seeing a dead body.

zackmars,

I read & understand just FINE thanks.

Nonetheless, your posts are very likely NOTHING but , "stuff you read some place", UNIFORMED OPINION & FOOLISHNESS.


yours, satx

 

[satx78247]

To All,

When I was a rookie & about 30 days out of the Sheriff's Academy, I was "always picked" by the veterans to go to autopsies. =The "old deputies" always said, "Send the 'college kid' & 'He needs to see what death looks like'."

I never told the "old guys" that I essentially grew up at M&S Hospital & Clinic & spent my HS years helping do "pick ups" (and sometimes doing "crime scene clean-ups" at up to 500.oo each = 500 bucks was a LOT of $$$$$ in 1962-66.) for CRAVER & SON'S FUNERAL PARLOR.
(My "steady" for several years was Mary Louise, the Craver's only daughter. = I long ago lost count of the number of times that she "slid across the seat" of the Caddy & started kissing me, when we were on the return trip from a "pick-up".)

Note: When I was in college, I also worked as a Funeral Director's assistant for a funeral home in Arkansas.
IF you want to know how much that a coed wants to date you, try picking her up at the dorm (for a first date) in a freshly washed & waxed, shiny black S&S hearse or a Cadillac Flower Car. = LOL.
(YEP. I was "a weird kid".)
ADDENDA: I met a YL at Henderson State named Patti, who had heard that I worked for a funeral home, had some "pocket money" for dates & could borrow the Flower Car for dates.
(I knew that the "cute redheaded hippy chick" was a "little weird" but I didn't know how weird until she told me one day after class that. "I know you can get in one. (pause) I want to @##$ you in a casket." & "I've done it in the cemetery. Have you done that?")

yours, satx

 

[zackmars]

zackmars,

I read & understand just FINE thanks.

Nonetheless, your posts are very likely NOTHING but , "stuff you read some place", UNIFORMED OPINION & FOOLISHNESS.


yours, satx

How so? What am i wrong about? About birdshot not being the most effective shotgun load? Or that it is not a good less lethal option?

You don't need to see a dead body to have some common sense

 

[satx78247]

How so? What am i wrong about? About birdshot not being the most effective shotgun load? Or that it is not a good less lethal option?

You don't need to see a dead body to have some common sense

zackmars,

EXACTLY WHEN & WHERE did I say (or even SUGGEST) that birdshot was the best load for home defense OR a good "less lethal" load??
(I NEVER said anything of the sort.)

SORRY, but I don't think that anybody here is FOOLED by your evasiveness & attempts to avoid answering questions directly with FACTS.
You seem to be trying to avoid simply saying: "I have NO practical experience in violent death by gunfire with a shotgun, whatever & have only uniformed OPINIONS about that subject."

Also, "commonsense" is NOT a good alternative to documented facts, ACTUAL EXPERIENCE & professional training.

yours, satx

 

[zackmars]

zackmars,

EXACTLY WHEN & WHERE did I say (or even SUGGEST) that birdshot was the best load for home defense OR a good "less lethal" load??
(I NEVER said anything of the sort.)

SORRY, but I don't think that anybody here is FOOLED by your evasiveness & attempts to avoid answering questions directly with FACTS.
You seem to be trying to avoid simply saying: "I have NO practical experience in violent death by gunfire with a shotgun, whatever & have only uniformed OPINIONS about that subject."

Also, "commonsense" is NOT a good alternative to documented facts, ACTUAL EXPERIENCE & professional training.

yours, satx

I never accused you of saying it, other posters have said it. What i don't get is that you seem to take issue with what I say, which is birdshot is on neither extreme end people put it on.

Sorry i don't care about your poorly formatted and borderline nonsensical posts, you've posted them before, and they are as nonsensical and pointless now as they were the last time

 

[satx78247]

Sorry i don't care about your poorly formatted and borderline nonsensical posts, you've posted them before, and they are as nonsensical and pointless now as they were the last time

zackmars,

In other words, you are STILL trying to avoid admitting that you "know NOT & know NOT that you know NOT" & HOPE that nobody will notice your EVASIVE, CLUELESS & frankly SILLY responses to my requests for your ACTUAL EXPERIENCES with the things that you "blather on & on" about..

LOL, satx

 

[zackmars]

zackmars,

In other words, you are STILL trying to avoid admitting that you "know NOT & know NOT that you know NOT" & HOPE that nobody will notice your EVASIVE, CLUELESS & frankly SILLY responses to my requests for your ACTUAL EXPERIENCES with the things that you "blather on & on" about..

LOL, satx

I have to hand it to you, that was one of your shorter posts, yet was easily in the top ten in the amount of nonsense you stuck in there. Keep at it, you'll have some real shitposting gold before long

 

[rotor]

The debate goes on. I personally don't want to be so close to a bad guy that birdshot (I have tons of 7 1/2 and 8) will stop a threat. My choice for indoors is #4 buck, full strength, 27 pellets. Does a hell of a job on a piece of plywood. I have not done Paul Harrell testing. I think the problem with birdshot unless very close is that it doesn't penetrate enough, again from shooting at a piece of plywood. If I pull the trigger I want the shot to stop a threat, not slow one down. At very close range birdshot and buck will work but across the room I want buck.

 

[Axxe55]

I never accused you of saying it, other posters have said it. What i don't get is that you seem to take issue with what I say, which is birdshot is on neither extreme end people put it on.

Sorry i don't care about your poorly formatted and borderline nonsensical posts, you've posted them before, and they are as nonsensical and pointless now as they were the last time

Zack, exactly where and when did I ever say such a thing? I didn't.

I'll ask direct question. Your answer, whether simple, or evasive will tell others how to determine whether you're sincere in your posts, or just some idiot spouting nonsense.

Have you ever seen a person's body, that died from a shotgun?
Exactly what do you do as career?
Have you ever tested birdshot in comparison to buckshot, various materials, at close range, and studied the results?

 

[satx78247]

The debate goes on. I personally don't want to be so close to a bad guy that birdshot (I have tons of 7 1/2 and 8) will stop a threat. My choice for indoors is #4 buck, full strength, 27 pellets. Does a hell of a job on a piece of plywood. I have not done Paul Harrell testing. I think the problem with birdshot unless very close is that it doesn't penetrate enough, again from shooting at a piece of plywood. If I pull the trigger I want the shot to stop a threat, not slow one down. At very close range birdshot and buck will work but across the room I want buck.

rotor,

At 73YO, I don't want to face an armed bad guy again with ANY firearm, as "I've done my time in the barrel" in 3 decades of "being pinned to a badge" every day.

Nonetheless, I will NOT fail "to defend family, hearth & home" if I HAVE TO & "with deadly force".
(TRUTH is that my very petite lady will shoot you quicker than I will and she WILL "shoot to kill" with her "adopted" Remington Model 7615 police carbine, to protect Nathan Paul & herself from danger. = The female of almost every species is the more deadly of the genders, if defending their young from harm.)

yours, satx

 

[Charlie]

Too many long posts! When they get long, I just scroll by them. Keep it short guys!