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Just had my WWII hero Dad's TRW M14NM retirement gift rifle confiscated by ATF

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  • Rating - 0%
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    Sep 11, 2021
    40
    11
    Temple Texas
    I am a Vietnam vet. My dad was a WWII D-Day 29th Inf hero. He was a career senior army nco and retired at Ft Hood where he died from a car accident in the late 1970s. He had a TRW M14NM that he gave to my brother, Dad got it under AR920-25 (attached) which is still to this day referenced in "The Code of Federal Regulations" (scroll to bottom of this page)

    My gun was made in a batch of 4,874 new M14NM rifles TRW manufactured in 1964. It was NEVER automatic capable as the attached letter from TRW attests.

    If you will read the judges brief from the lawsuit, (attached) the judge never refers to the rifle in question as an M14 in fact he always references it as the "NM" He also makes a very clear the distinction between a M14 and an M14NM earlier in the brief.

    There have been a few confiscations of M14 rifles in the past but mine is unique. It is only 700 serial numbers from the one in the (attached) lawsuit and is one of the "M14NM" built by TRW specifically for DCM (Department of Civilian Marksmanship)

    M14NM even caries a different National stock number (see AR920-25)

    My brother died of covid earlier this year and I got the TRW M14NM. My attorney advised me to notify ATF so there would be no doubt of the legality of it.

    I notified them on May 19. I felt that even if they ruled it was a machine gun I would be best off if I had an 07 FFL so I applied, was interviewed and got it in the mail on Saturday 8/23. I sent ATF an email that day. FIRST THING MONDAY AFTER A FOUR MONTH WAIT:


    Good morning Mr. XXXXX I apologize for the late reply. I have received information back from our Firearms and Technology Division (FATD) regarding your M14NM. The TRW M14 NM in question is a “machinegun” and “firearm” under the NFA. As you did not manufacture the firearm while possessing an 07 FFL with current SOT, under 18 U.S.C. 922(o) it is contraband. It is FATD’s view that this is a “machinegun” because it is readily restorable.



    In U.S. v. One Harrington, 378 F.3d at 534, the Sixth Circuit found that the ATF's analysis was thorough, its reasoning valid, and its decision consistent with earlier pronouncements; therefore, it found that the classification of the receiver was not arbitrary, capricious or an abuse of discretion. Similarly, in U. S. v. One TRW Model M14, 294 F.Supp.2d at 901-902, the district court concluded that the ATF's classifications were to be reviewed under an arbitrary and capricious or abuse of discretion standard, and that the ATF' s classification of the M-14 as a "machinegun" had not been shown to be arbitrary. Likewise, in U.S. v. One TRW U.S. Rife Model 14, no. CV-02-264-TUC-RCC, (D.Az. 2004) (unpublished), the district court applied the arbitrary and capricious standard to the ATF's classification of the M-14 receiver as a "machinegun" and concluded that it did not abuse its discretion in making that determination.



    Firearms not lawfully registered as required by the NFA may not be registered and legitimized by their possessors. They are contraband and unlawful to possess. You can make arrangements with your local ATF office to dispose of the item.



    So I sent him the above information and they had Waco ATF contact me and two very nice young special agents confiscated it on 9/9/2021.

    Found an attorney, he thinks we are in the right and can get it back. His fee? $20,000 up front.

    I am retired and live off SS and 100% VA disability. I had a meeting with my family, we are going to borrow the money. When we win we will sell the rifle.

    (Did I mention, it is also electro-penciled M21 on the heel, it was at one time a Vietnam sniper rifle.)

    The ATF is WRONG!!!!!
    Venture Surplus ad
     

    Attachments

    • 111 AR_92025_Rifles_M14M_and_M14NM_for_Civilian_Marksmanship_Use (1) - Copy (1).pdf
      84.7 KB · Views: 225
    • 111 M14NM lawsuit pages-deleted.pdf
      293.4 KB · Views: 238
    • 111 TRW letter lawsuit.pdf
      185.9 KB · Views: 192
    • TRW M14NM-M21 .jpg
      TRW M14NM-M21 .jpg
      26.6 KB · Views: 251

    ZX9RCAM

    Over the Rainbow bridge...
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    2   0   0
    May 14, 2008
    59,737
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    The Woodlands, Tx.
    Just read that you plan on selling the rifle.
    I figured that you wanted it for sentimental reasons.
    Do you feel that you will be able to recoup the attorney fees when selling it?
     

    Axxe55

    Retiretgtshit stirrer
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    Dec 15, 2019
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    Lost in East Texas Elhart Texas
    First of all, welcome to TGT.

    Second, having never owned a "select-fire" M14, my knowledge is a bit lacking, and have only owned the M1A semi-auto version. So bear with my questions please.

    This rifle in question that was seized is "select-fire" correct?

    It was never registered in, or prior to 1986, correct?

    I'm failing to understand why it would be exempt?

    ETA: spelling.
     
    Last edited:

    ZX9RCAM

    Over the Rainbow bridge...
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    May 14, 2008
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    The Woodlands, Tx.
    First of all, welcome to TGT.

    Second, having never owned a "select-fire" M14, my knowledge is a bit lacking, and have only owned the M1A semi-auto version. So bear with my questions please.

    This rifle in question hat was seized is "select-fire" correct?

    It was never registered in, or prior to 1986, correct?

    I'm failing to understand why it would be exempt?

    He states that it wasn't full auto capable.
     

    baboon

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    May 6, 2008
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    Out here by the lake!
    First off welcome to the forum. Having not inspected the weapon I could not say one way or the other. Once a machine gun, always a machine gun has pretty much been BATFE mantra!

    To be an M-14 machine gun there needs to be certain specific things, the first being a connector
    iu.jpeg
    switch on the right rear of the receiver. If it looks like the picture you might very well have a machine gun
     
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    0   0   0
    Sep 11, 2021
    40
    11
    Temple Texas
    Read the attached AR920-25.

    "The Director of Alcohol and Tobacco
    Tax Division of the U.S. Treasury Department has
    ruled that an M14 rifle, so modified, will not be a
    firearm as defined in section 5848 (1) and (2) of
    the Internal Revenue Code, and may be sold or issued
    to civilians without payment of a special
    license"

    Section 5848 described machine guns.

    Attached is a photo of some the required welds, there are four more. On TRW M14NM the welds were done before all machining operations were performed and before heat treatment of the receiver. That is why it was never a machine gun, and therefore can not be "restored" back to something it never was.

    Now about selling the gun when I win the lawsuit.
    In 1987 the gun from the lawsuit, also a TRW M14NM made in the one and only batch of M14NM rifles manufactured by TRW, sold for $8500. My gun has the added distinction of being a M21 Vietnam sniper rifle. The army has destroyed almost all m14 rifles, there are rumors of some M14NM still in storage but Lee Emerson the noted expert on the M14 tells me that this can not be absolutely confirmed, and there are NO known M21 M14NM rifles in civilian hands.

    Current value of mine?? But you can bet to the right collector or bidding war it could go off the wall.

    There is an XM21 in the West Point Museum. It was the experimental version of the M21.

    that being said, you might want to go here: http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=56612

    I personally know of 3 more M14NMs

    I still live in the Killeen- Ft Hood area and you will not believe what turns up at garage sales. A buddy is a garage sale addict and found 2 USGI M2 carbine full auto conversion kits on a lady's table at a sale in Killeen for $2. She had no Idea what they were, they were from her late husband. Now those ARE contraband!!
     

    Attachments

    • TRW welds.jpg
      TRW welds.jpg
      22.6 KB · Views: 170

    kbaxter60

    "Gig 'Em!"
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    Jan 23, 2019
    9,912
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    Pipe Creek
    Do you still possess the rifle, or was it surrendered?
    I was about to suggest that you set up a GoFundMe account to help cover the legal costs. But they would likely shut it down, as they hate the 2nd amendment .
    Anyway, I would be willing to pitch in.
     
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Sep 11, 2021
    40
    11
    Temple Texas
    Do you still possess the rifle, or was it surrendered?
    I was about to suggest that you set up a GoFundMe account to help cover the legal costs. But they would likely shut it down, as they hate the 2nd amendment .
    Anyway, I would be willing to pitch in.
    Man, I really appreciate your offer.

    Yes the gun was confiscated 9/9

    The two young agents, who I would be proud to have as grandchildren, could not understand what the fuss was all about. They are used to busting druggies with machineguns, and here is a 73 year old man with his 18 month old great-great grandson love of his life and what for all appearances and function was a M1A.

    God takes care of fools and I think I may be a big one.
    He is also behind "things happen for a reason" and "karma"

    About the time the rifle came into my life my daughter decided to get married. My son had been renting a house we owned. My daughter moved into her husbands house, my son bought her house. We are selling the rent house. Been busting butt these last few weeks renovating, will go on the market Monday.

    We should be OK.
     

    kbaxter60

    "Gig 'Em!"
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    Jan 23, 2019
    9,912
    96
    Pipe Creek
    Man, I really appreciate your offer.

    Yes the gun was confiscated 9/9

    The two young agents, who I would be proud to have as grandchildren, could not understand what the fuss was all about. They are used to busting druggies with machineguns, and here is a 73 year old man with his 18 month old great-great grandson love of his life and what for all appearances and function was a M1A.

    God takes care of fools and I think I may be a big one.
    He is also behind "things happen for a reason" and "karma"

    About the time the rifle came into my life my daughter decided to get married. My son had been renting a house we owned. My daughter moved into her husbands house, my son bought her house. We are selling the rent house. Been busting butt these last few weeks renovating, will go on the market Monday.

    We should be OK.
    I agree: you will be okay.
    Two reasons for my willingness to help:
    * You are right and they are wrong.
    * I am blessed with the ownership of an M1A. If this crap stands, it will be no time that they decide mine is a machine gun, since it could be modified. Scary!!!!
    So, yes, my interest is selfish.
     
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Sep 11, 2021
    40
    11
    Temple Texas
    Hopefully they only electric pencil an evidence number on it & not cut it up!
    They better not deface it in any way that deters from it's historic value. I have letters from military history museums attesting to its historic value.

    The ATF does not have the authority to allow me to "register" this rifle as a NFA firearm. Only congress can do that.

    BUT, ATF does have the authority to declare a firearm a "Curio & Relic":

    My desire is to have all M14NM declared Curio and Relics by ATF ONLY IN THEIR ORIGINAL WELDED CONFIGURATION as per AR920-25. and I suggested this to ATF!!!

    check out this link explains it all


    even though legally it is over 50 years old and thus a Curio & Relic adding M14NM to the list would clear up any doubt.


     
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