Is the defense shortgun still relevant?

[candcallen]

12 gauge. For those times when you need to reach out and touch someone, up close and personal like!

I remember an idiot years ago on another gun forum criticized me for choosing a 12 gauge with buck-shot for home defense. Claimed it would tear up wall and leave a huge bloody mess to clean up if I had to use it.

Hmm...Well, if cleaning up blood and brain matter, and patching a few holes in drywall are the cost of keeping my loved ones safe, I'll pay that cost every day if I have to. Small sacrifice IMO.

Show him pics of the bloody soggy mess using birdshot makes. Not as deadly, wounds proficiently. At appropriate distancing and with proper shot placement. Ofcourse.

 

[Axxe55]

Your back is always turned when s j.g es doing the laughing.


About your short gun ofcourse. Keeping it on topic.

I swore I heard her snickering behind my back!

Show him pics of the bloody soggy mess using birdshot makes. Not as deadly, wounds proficiently. At appropriate distancing and with proper shot placement. Ofcourse.

Bird-shot at very close ranges can do some damage for sure. Buck-shot is preferable, but bird-shot will work in a pinch.

 

[candcallen]

I've seen pics of birdshot to the gut at about 10 feet.

Mush

 

[Axxe55]

I've seen pics of birdshot to the gut at about 10 feet.

Mush

I have never tried out bird-shot on a meat product, but there are some videos on YouTube of some guys that have. At close range, it does more damage than I would have thought it could do..

I have tested bird-shot against buck-shot on various building materials, just to see what damage and penetration occurs.

Buck-shot is much better an option, but bird-shot at close ranges penetrates further than many think it does.

 

[candcallen]

The parents of One of my daughters friends just tested birdshot in their home last week.

It was an unscheduled test if you know what I mean. At least they only broke one rule and n ou thing but pride, drywall and glass was injured.

Anyways it went thru 2 pieces of drywall broke a window and fell into the yard right outside the glass. I.e. one full interior wall and a window.

First piece of drywall...Large center hole about 10 gage with some obvious spread of the shot outside the large hole. Second piece about the same. The found shot in the dirt right outside the window.

 

[Sasquatch]

If you can find it, this stuff is absolutely gnarly out of a 16” barreled PCC. View attachment 270854

I used to actually carry that stuff as my PDW / duty load when I was an armed security monkey. It was back during the final years of the mag ban - and a friend of mine loaned me 3 17-round G17 mags to replace the 10 rounders my gun came with. He also sold me some of that ammo for a song. I ran a few mags thru to verify it functioned in the gun, and see how it grouped. Recoil impulse on that stuff is different. Its not exactly slouchy from the 4.4" barrel of a G17, out of a 16 inch PCC barrel - yeah, I can see it screaming.

 

[msharley]

I have never tried out bird-shot on a meat product, but there are some videos on YouTube of some guys that have. At close range, it does more damage than I would have thought it could do..

I have tested bird-shot against buck-shot on various building materials, just to see what damage and penetration occurs.

Buck-shot is much better an option, but bird-shot at close ranges penetrates further than many think it does.

#4 Bird or #4 Buck....

At "bad breath" range? A winner!

 

[Hoji]

I used to actually carry that stuff as my PDW / duty load when I was an armed security monkey. It was back during the final years of the mag ban - and a friend of mine loaned me 3 17-round G17 mags to replace the 10 rounders my gun came with. He also sold me some of that ammo for a song. I ran a few mags thru to verify it functioned in the gun, and see how it grouped. Recoil impulse on that stuff is different. Its not exactly slouchy from the 4.4" barrel of a G17, out of a 16 inch PCC barrel - yeah, I can see it screaming.

Makes a hell of a fire ball coming out of my G19

 

[Axxe55]

The parents of One of my daughters friends just tested birdshot in their home last week.

It was an unscheduled test if you know what I mean. At least they only broke one rule and n ou thing but pride, drywall and glass was injured.

Anyways it went thru 2 pieces of drywall broke a window and fell into the yard right outside the glass. I.e. one full interior wall and a window.

First piece of drywall...Large center hole about 10 gage with some obvious spread of the shot outside the large hole. Second piece about the same. The found shot in the dirt right outside the window.

There are naysayers that will cry to the rafters that bird-shot will get you killed if used for home defensive weapons. They tried to convince me that it won't penetrate body armor if a bad guy is wearing it. DUH! Neither will buck-shot!

This where you need to learn to adapt and evolve with the dynamics of the situation.

I generally practiced shooting center-mass with most weapons. But in light in the extreme unlikely event a bad guys is wearing body armor, and I shoot said bad guy center-mass and he doesn't go down, and my brain realizes that he could be wearing body armor, my next shots are going to be either a head shot, or a pelvic shot.

A shot in the pelvic region is not necessarily a deadly shot, if medical treatment is in time, but it is a game changer. There are lots of arteries and bone in that area and it will put a bad guy on the ground.

 

[mongoose]

I have tested birdshot out a 37 with a modified barrel. Quite devastating to exterior and interior walls of an old house trailer. Also have tested in mock building drywall walls built by the Feds for training for a Feds prison. ( Use the range I belong to for training). I carry #4 Buck. I wouldn't want to be hit with birdshot.

 

[Axxe55]

I have tested birdshot out a 37 with a modified barrel. Quite devastating to exterior and interior walls of an old house trailer. Also have tested in mock building drywall walls built by the Feds for training for a Feds prison. ( Use the range I belong to for training). I carry #4 Buck. I wouldn't want to be hit with birdshot.

I was questioned years ago why I used the distances I did for my informal testing and that I should have increased the distances to get a truer indicator of the bird-shot.

The maximum distances I used was 30 feet. Why I was asked. Because 30 feet would be very close to the very maximum distance within my house if I had to engage an intruder. I see no reason to test further than what I could realistically see within my own house.

It was pointed out that bird-shot loses energy and velocity over distance. Gee.....I already knew that! Wasn't my first rodeo! Buck-shot pellets being much larger, will carry their energy much further than bird-shot.

 

[billtool]

There are naysayers that will cry to the rafters that bird-shot will get you killed if used for home defensive weapons. They tried to convince me that it won't penetrate body armor if a bad guy is wearing it. DUH! Neither will buck-shot!

This where you need to learn to adapt and evolve with the dynamics of the situation.

I generally practiced shooting center-mass with most weapons. But in light in the extreme unlikely event a bad guys is wearing body armor, and I shoot said bad guy center-mass and he doesn't go down, and my brain realizes that he could be wearing body armor, my next shots are going to be either a head shot, or a pelvic shot.

A shot in the pelvic region is not necessarily a deadly shot, if medical treatment is in time, but it is a game changer. There are lots of arteries and bone in that area and it will put a bad guy on the ground.

There’s some other important stuff in the pelvic area too that’ll sure take the sand out of a guy if it’s full of 80 or so 7-1/2 birdshot pellets.

 

[Axxe55]

There’s some other important stuff in the pelvic area too that’ll sure take the sand out of a guy if it’s full of 80 or so 7-1/2 birdshot pellets.

That is true. I have never been shot in the pelvis, but I did fracture mine in a motorcycle accident many years ago. It's extremely painful and will put you on the ground. Walking is very, very difficult.

I could imagine those effects being magnified a lot if that damage came from being shot.

 

[Grumps21]

It is a nice butt in a saggy flat assed old man whose lost muscle mass due to aging and multiple surgery sorta way.

Trollin indeed. Trollin for flat saggy old man ass.



Not that there's anything wrong with that. My wife loves it...she says.



Seiously, Try as he might, no one cares who or what he screws as long as it's an adult and can consent.

It just ain't gonna be me.

No ones falling into that trap.

Not that theres anything wrong with traps. Just not my thing.

View attachment 270808

I think I just peed myself. You guys gotta stop this tag teaming

 

[Sam7sf]

That’s going into out of context thread. Not by me.

 

[zackmars]

All this talk of 00 and #4 buck, yet not a single mention of #1. The best, most efficient 12ga load available. Better consistency than #4, but not as wasteful as 00.

Combine it with a flite control wad and you've got a winner. Unfortunately that load is near impossible to find. Everyone should go and email federal and tell them to make more LE1321B

 

[mongoose]

All this talk of 00 and #4 buck, yet not a single mention of #1. The best, most efficient 12ga load available. Better consistency than #4, but not as wasteful as 00.

Combine it with a flite control wad and you've got a winner. Unfortunately that load is near impossible to find. Everyone should go and email federal and tell them to make more LE1321B

I’ll stick with my #4.

 

[Nightwatch]

For home defense, I think #4 is the best. It's 24 caliber, has 27 pellets at 30 feet or less.

Outside the home, I went from 00 to #1...a few more pellets than 00, 30 caliber, and maybe a bit longer range.

These days, shotgun stays at home, and it's a 20 ga. #3 buck, 20 pellets and .25 caliber at 1220 fps...a bit less from a short barrel.

 

[Fletcherjl]

My wife has a 20 gauge semi auto on her side of the bed. It's loaded with number 3. I have no concerns about the effectiveness. My 12 gauge hidden in the living room is full of #4 with 3 000 shells and 2 slugs in the side saddle. I prefer the AR but a 12 gauge hits hard and can't be discounted.

 

[msharley]