Is the defense shortgun still relevant?

[Axxe55]

[/QUOTE]

Shit, not me.

i think you were closest.

I didn't even get time to guess a day!

 

[satx78247]

I didn't even get time to guess a day!
[/QUOTE]

Axxe55,

Even though I'm somewhat of a fanatic on FREE SPEECH, IF I had made a guess it would have been DAYS before today, when he was finally "sent on down the road".

As a former Justice of the SCOTUS said: The remedy for speech that people find objectionable is MORE speech

AND
Almost invariably attempts to limit speech are by LEFTISTS, who only approve of FREE SPEECH that AGREES with their position in every detail..
(Communists & Radical Socialists are nearly always PURITANICAL.)

Also, the late Justice Thurgood Marshall, in a case about "freedom of expression" (involving a drive-in movie theater) said: IF you find any material that you see or hear objectionable, you should shift your attention to something that you find more pleasing.

yours, satx

 

[popo22]

OP: "I happened upon this article and found it mirroring my own shotgun usage as of late. I haven't gotten rid of my shotguns but I found I just don't use them for home defense since I finally accepted the fact that loads like the 55 grain M193 FMJ or soft point 223/5.56 in an AR won't "

I'm not really sure what the question is, but if you've ever seen what a couple of 12 ga 00 does to a person coming through a doorway at "home defense" distance, you probably wouldn't ask that question. It's devastating.

 

[popo22]

" Personally, MY choice for home & farm defense against 2 & 4 footed predators is my old Model 870 & loaded with six rounds of #4 buck. - Others are free to disagree with my choice.

yours, satx "

^^^ No argument here, I've seen the results numerous times, It's the most devastating "in-home" weapon around, short of possibly a "full auto" sub gun.

 

[satx78247]

" Personally, MY choice for home & farm defense against 2 & 4 footed predators is my old Model 870 & loaded with six rounds of #4 buck. - Others are free to disagree with my choice.

yours, satx "

^^^ No argument here, I've seen the results numerous times, It's the most devastating "in-home" weapon around, short of possibly a "full auto" sub gun.

popo22,

IF I had to choose whether to be shot at with a "buzz gun" or a 12 gauge pump, loaded with buckshot, I would QUICKLY pick the SMG, as the average person cannot hit the side of a barn with one "from the inside".

FYI, most LEOs would "part with a piece of their body" to be generally known by a "MACHO COP NICKNAME" to their co-workers.
("BULLETS BOB" McCoy, with whom I worked long ago in New Orleans absolutely REVELED IN his "nickname", after a criminal emptied the drum on a TSMG from 20-25 feet away& missed "Bullet Bob".. = The thug shot the floor, the ceiling, the furniture, the TV set, the motel door that Bob was entering & even a parked car about a block away BUT didn't come close to actually wounding Bob. = All that I can say about that incident was it just wasn't Bob's day to die.)

yours, satx

 

[Bigboy2014]

Yes, depending on the situation

 

[satx78247]

Yes, depending on the situation

Bigboy2014,

There is NO such thing as an "all purpose firearm".

yours, satx

 

[equin]

Thankfully, I’ve never been in a home defense situation, and hopefully I’ll never have to be in one. Notwithstanding that inexperience, I still believe a shotgun is a very viable and relevant means of defense. I’m reminded of Germany’s diplomatic protest during WWI of America’s use of Winchester ‘97 shotguns (trench guns).

This awesome 'trench broom' terrified Germans in both World Wars

The Winchester Model 1897 and 1912 were so effective in the trenches on the Western Front of WWi that Germany protested their use.

www.wearethemighty.com

I find it odd that rather than protest the use of the BAR, which was an advanced design for its time, they protested the use of 12 gauge shotguns loaded with 00 buck during the relatively close range fighting of the trench warfare.

Now, I’ve never been in a WW1 trench, but neither have I ever shot anything inside my home. I would surmise there’s probably less room to maneuver inside a trench, though, probably more so than a hallway. But our shotguns apparently had enough of a devastating effect against the Germans inside those trenches to the point of resulting in a protest.

Of course, trench walls won’t allow penetration like sheetrock will. So there’s that to consider when deciding on home defense uses. But I still think a shotgun is a good option as long as penetration issues are thought out and factored in.

 

[candcallen]

Buckshot penetrates.

 

[Axxe55]

It's hard to argue with the firepower of a shotgun at close range.

The shotgun isn't a perfect weapon for home defense, but IMO, it comes pretty close to being the most versatile weapon for home defensive purposes.

 

[equin]

Buckshot penetrates.

According to this article, even turkey loads penetrated through 7 half-inch thick sheets of sheetrock:

An AR for Home Defense? Clay, Drywall, Raw Meat & A Myth Busted!

When a homeowner uses an AR-15 to defend himself, the question arises … should we be worried about shoot through inside of our homes, and are pistols or shotguns a better choice than rifles? Basically, is a 5.56mm AR too much for home defense, or is it the right choice?

www.gunsamerica.com

But that same article noted that all rifle and pistol rounds, both ball and hollow point, went through 11 sheets of half-inch no problem. Same with soft-point hunting rounds - passed through all 11 sheets, but 64 and 53 gr 5.56 passed through 4 sheets before fragmenting while the steel core continued on through all 11 sheets. Interestingly enough, the author of that article states he does not prefer using a shotgun for home defense, but doesn’t explain why (I’m guessing he explains his reasons in some other article, though).

If you do a search for Paul Harrell’s youtube videos, you’ll find he does some interesting penetration tests with various loads of shot. In another of his videos, I was surprised to see rifle rounds doing complete pass-throughs of some certain sized tree trunks I initially thought would’ve certainly stopped the round. He also has a few videos touting the shotgun as a viable home defense gun.

But yeah, I’m sure buckshot could also penetrate all 11 of those half-inch sheets of sheetrock. Looks like most any decent round will, too, regardless if it’s soft-point or hollow-point. But as the author noted, there are other factors, such as 2x4 framing, PVC, electrical conduits and boxes that might also affect penetration. He decided to go with just sheetrock, though.

 

[satx78247]

According to this article, even turkey loads penetrated through 7 half-inch thick sheets of sheetrock:

An AR for Home Defense? Clay, Drywall, Raw Meat & A Myth Busted!

When a homeowner uses an AR-15 to defend himself, the question arises … should we be worried about shoot through inside of our homes, and are pistols or shotguns a better choice than rifles? Basically, is a 5.56mm AR too much for home defense, or is it the right choice?

www.gunsamerica.com

But that same article noted that all rifle and pistol rounds, both ball and hollow point, went through 11 sheets of half-inch no problem. Same with soft-point hunting rounds - passed through all 11 sheets, but 64 and 53 gr 5.56 passed through 4 sheets before fragmenting while the steel core continued on through all 11 sheets. Interestingly enough, the author of that article states he does not prefer using a shotgun for home defense, but doesn’t explain why (I’m guessing he explains his reasons in some other article, though).

If you do a search for Paul Harrell’s youtube videos, you’ll find he does some interesting penetration tests with various loads of shot. In another of his videos, I was surprised to see rifle rounds doing complete pass-throughs of some certain sized tree trunks I initially thought would’ve certainly stopped the round. He also has a few videos touting the shotgun as a viable home defense gun.

But yeah, I’m sure buckshot could also penetrate all 11 of those half-inch sheets of sheetrock. Looks like most any decent round will, too, regardless if it’s soft-point or hollow-point. But as the author noted, there are other factors, such as 2x4 framing, PVC, electrical conduits and boxes that might also affect penetration. He decided to go with just sheetrock, though.

equin; All,

Fwiw, MSG LaShawn Stanley, USA, Retired & former member of the Weapons Committee of USAISC, stated in 2019 that it was his belief that out to well beyond 15M that #2 GOOSE SHOT was "clearly superior to buckshot, rifled slugs or high-power rifle rounds, with respect to lethality against human intruders & causes 'minimal overpenetration' when used inside a residential or commercial structure. Moreover #2 goose shot is unlikely to cause severe or lethal wounds to human targets beyond 50M".
(It is well-known here that I prefer #4 buckshot for that task as #4 is DISABLING or LETHAL against human targets out to at least 25-30M.)

yours, satx

 

[ZX9RCAM]

Is #2 goose shot different from #2 shot?

 

[satx78247]

Is #2 goose shot different from #2 shot?

ZX9RCAM,

NO, it is the same size, though #2 shot is often referred to as "goose shot" to avoid possible confusion with #2 Buck.
Also, MSG Stanley referred to #2 shot as "goose shot".

yours, satx

 

[ZX9RCAM]

What is the difference between #2 buck shot, and #2 (goose) shot?

 

[candcallen]

What is the difference between #2 buck shot, and #2 (goose) shot?

 

[satx78247]

ZX9RCAM,

Fwiw, "2 goose shot makes "an awful mess" within the torso of a human target. = I once observed an autopsy at the New Orleans ME's Office, where the deceased had been shot with a load of goose shot out of one of the old "long range" Marlin BA Goose Guns.

The ASST ME asked the SGT Allin, of NOCSO , "What the H was this guy shot with, a damn howitzer??"

The Sergeant said, "NOPE. A long-barreled Goose Gun".
(The ME nodded in response & then said, "Every organ in his chest is badly torn-up.")

yours, satx

 

[rotor]

#4 buck in the house.

 

[seeker_two]

Goose and turkey loads are a big step up from birdshot and a small step down from buckshot. After seeing what a #4 turkey load does to varmints, I keep them as first two rounds of every shotgun I own.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

 

[Sasquatch]

I have both a 10.5 inch AR pistol and an 18.5" Mossberg 12ga handy as the main "home defense" weapons. Both have red dot sights. Both will make your day go horribly, horribly wrong if you are dumb enough to break into our home. Both will also dispatch any nasty critter that might need dispatching (thinking hogs) if I need to. I'd like to actually swap the 12ga for a 20 so my wife can manage it easier, the 12ga even with "low recoil" loads is a bit stout for her. If that's not enough, there's a .30-30 Winchester to back those two up that is handy if needed.