Is it time...

[cycleguy2300]

Yep, and that woman in Ft Worth that felt like she had any right to be prepared to defend in her own home.

Civilians need to learn their place. Police must return home safe, and an innocent life is a small price to pay.


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So what would you have a police officer do if they see someone with a gun (or other deadly threat) and reasonably believe their life is in danger?

The location is besides the point in a house, outside of a house... the things you have collectivly suggested police should or shouldn't do, don't work in real life any more than someone suggesting you as a LTC holder should shoot someone in the leg, or arm or shoot the gun out of their hand instead of shooting COM or something else that will actually stop a threat.

It is no different than if you heard some cops arresting someone at gunpoint in a walmart and draw your gun and pie around the aisle to see what the cops are doing. You just might get shot...

We go into unknown situations and have to make quick decisions with limited amounts of information. It's why police are held to the standard of "objectively reasonable" or in other words "could another officer in the same situation, with the reasonable beliefs held by the officer at the time force or deadly force was used, reasonably come to the same conclusion"

If any of you are around Austin PM me and I can help you get a rideout so you can see what police really do. It's not your Alex Jones fantasy... You won't find another group that is as pro-gun, pro-bill-of-rights, down to earth as police (at least Texas police...) are.

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[DyeF9]

So what would you have a police officer do if they see someone with a gun (or other deadly threat) and reasonably believe their life is in danger?

The location is besides the point in a house, outside of a house... the things you have collectivly suggested police should or shouldn't do, don't work in real life any more than someone suggesting you as a LTC holder should shoot someone in the leg, or arm or shoot the gun out of their hand instead of shooting COM or something else that will actually stop a threat.

It is no different than if you heard some cops arresting someone at gunpoint in a walmart and draw your gun and pie around the aisle to see what the cops are doing. You just might get shot...

We go into unknown situations and have to make quick decisions with limited amounts of information. It's why police are held to the standard of "objectively reasonable" or in other words "could another officer in the same situation, with the reasonable beliefs held by the officer at the time force or deadly force was used, reasonably come to the same conclusion"

If any of you are around Austin PM me and I can help you get a rideout so you can see what police really do. It's not your Alex Jones fantasy... You won't find another group that is as pro-gun, pro-bill-of-rights, down to earth as police (at least Texas police...) are.

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I don't think anyone want police officers lives in danger more than they have to be. They have lives and families as well. To say your life is objectively more important than the life of an innocent bystander in their own home is arrogant though. To say they don't have the right to be prepared to defend themselves when an unknown danger is very obviously lurking around or inside their house is criminal. The same question goes to you, what would you have a person do inside their own house when someone is lurking in the shadows outside their windows with a gun? So for you it's okay, but they're supposed to just die like cattle? There's clearly a problem with tactics and how police are approaching a questionable and unknown residence.

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[cycleguy2300]

How about you call your neighbor beroe you call in a welfare check on them.

There are times and places for that and many times it would solve the problem we go to fix, but for example; if I heard my neighbor screaming about shooting themselves or committing suicide etc, I'm going to call the cops and guess what it will come out as a CHECK WELFARE or a SUICIDE HS depending on exactly how the caller described it. We use not only call text, but location history to decide how to approach the call many people are repeat customers...

Or maybe the neighbor is a jerk and they don't want to they guy who called to see what was up, just to have to call the cops anyway and gain even more attention from the jerk neighbor.

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[DoubleDuty]

So are you now shifting the blame to the neighbor?

OH, no I guess it came off that way. I personally would call and check on them before calling 911

 

[ZX9RCAM]

I know the phone number of ONE neighbor, out of all of them around me.

 

[cycleguy2300]

I don't think anyone want police officers lives in danger more than they have to be. They have lives and families as well. To say your life is objectively more important than the life of an innocent bystander in their own home is arrogant though. To say they don't have the right to be prepared to defend themselves when an unknown danger is very obviously lurking around or inside their house is criminal. The same question goes to you, what would you have a person do inside their own house when someone is lurking in the shadows outside their windows with a gun? So for you it's okay, but they're supposed to just die like cattle? There's clearly a problem with tactics and how police are approaching a questionable and unknown residence.

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No one suggested police lives are anymore important than an innocent bystander, it is my, and my brothers and sisters, job to sacrifice ourselves to protect others, however, that does not extend to letting someone, even if unintentionally threaten my or anothers life.

We need to remember differant places have differant expectations of privacy. The 4th ammendment protects us from unreasonable searches and seizures (uses of force are considered a seizure). Your person (i.e. body cavities, body parts ranks highest, generally followed by your house/cell phones/etc, lower down are things like cars and even lower are areas outside of the "curtilage" of the home, i.e. fields, un-fenced areas etc which courts have upheld police entering and searching without a warrent a search warrant to enter so long as reasonable cause to be there.

Police can walk through a front yard with less reason needed than to enter your fenced back yard, while going into your house takes probable cause AND exigency, OR a warrant.

As to what I would do if I saw a shadow with a gun outside. I would turn off my lights, get my rifle, call the cops and gather my peeps in our back closet that has the longest and narrowest fatal funnel for me to shoot down. Unless there is a MAJOR pressing need to do something else, I am letting the "threat" come to me where I have the greatest advantage. What if it had been a burglar?? Tactics still dictate stay concealed, and let the threat come to you. If its cops, they announce (per policy at APD) before entering and I will see and properly ID any bogeys before letting them see me with a gun.

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[easy rider]

I don't know, to me it would be worth having a burglar get away, than one innocent life being taken.

 

[DyeF9]

No one suggested police lives are anymore important than an innocent bystander, it is my, and my brothers and sisters, job to sacrifice ourselves to protect others, however, that does not extend to letting someone, even if unintentionally threaten my or anothers life.

We need to remember differant places have differant expectations of privacy. The 4th ammendment protects us from unreasonable searches and seizures (uses of force are considered a seizure). Your person (i.e. body cavities, body parts ranks highest, generally followed by your house/cell phones/etc, lower down are things like cars and even lower are areas outside of the "curtilage" of the home, i.e. fields, un-fenced areas etc which courts have upheld police entering and searching without a warrent a search warrant to enter so long as reasonable cause to be there.

Police can walk through a front yard with less reason needed than to enter your fenced back yard, while going into your house takes probable cause AND exigency, OR a warrant.

As to what I would do if I saw a shadow with a gun outside. I would turn off my lights, get my rifle, call the cops and gather my peeps in our back closet that has the longest and narrowest fatal funnel for me to shoot down. Unless there is a MAJOR pressing need to do something else, I am letting the "threat" come to me where I have the greatest advantage. What if it had been a burglar?? Tactics still dictate stay concealed, and let the threat come to you. If its cops, they announce (per policy at APD) before entering and I will see and properly ID any bogeys before letting them see me with a gun.

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And if the cops see you moving around with the rifle or gun while your seeking cover and decide they feel threatened and shoot you? You cool with that?

Also to be clear, that is also the same plan I have. I have no intention of going around my house more than I need to in order to get my children to a safe location and then make a kill box funneling to my location. My wife has been instructed to do the same, though with little to no practice or active thought about it, I don't trust her to kill lights, get a weapon and gather the family to a safe localized area with a good field of view under cover while under that kind of stress.

My point is my job, even not being a LEO, is to protect myself and my family from all unknown threats, just like it is yours. Even if you have legal presidence to be on someone's property, you are on someone else's property. Front yard? Sure. My main front entrance is there. I wouldn't be alarmed. Sides of the house? I would be alarmed. Backyard? I would absolutely have a weapon at the ready. I'm not the strategic expert here, I do science. You guys need to have a reasonable tactic to safely investigate without endangering yourselves so much that you're jumping at shadows and shooting people in their own home through a window. And that crap about aggravated assault because you're lurking around my property unannounced and I have a weapon to protect myself? You gotta be kidding. Pull your heads put of your butts. If that's the case then civilians should be able to sue the living shit out of cops who unjustly pull guns on them when they've not displayed any aggression. Cops, judges, and everyone else needs to be held accountable to the same law. If you're above it, it's wrong.

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[toddnjoyce]

... You won't find another group that is as pro-gun, pro-bill-of-rights, down to earth as police (at least Texas police...) are...

Like Art, or Bill McManus, or any other Chief in a major city in Texas?

 

[toddnjoyce]

... it is my, and my brothers and sisters, job to sacrifice ourselves to protect others,

SCOTUS begs to differ.

.. however, that does not extend to letting someone, even if unintentionally threaten my or anothers life.

Unless an LEO unintentionally threatens a citizen

...Police can walk through a front yard with less reason needed than to enter your fenced back yard...

And if it’s posted for no trespassing, that whole immunity thing comes in to play.

....

As to what I would do if I saw a shadow with a gun outside.

What if that shadow ends up being an LEO?

Like Art, or Bill McManus, or any other Chief in a major city in Texas?

 

[vmax]

The military can produce a fully qualified combat pilot from scratch in less than 2 years.

The answer you seek is not in the training, it’s in the recruit.

Preach it man.

PDs have been going out of their way to recruit softer less qualified people to meet quotas rather than standards.
About 6 months after I left Air Force Security and was a civilian, I was recruited along with at least one other military cop buddy of mine for APD
They ran us through everything and had the field down to 18 and the Academy was going to be around 15 that year.
We passed everything including the background checks only to be passed over for 2 females that spoke Spanish and we were told that the PD wanted more females and more people who spoke Spanish.

When they came back to me for the next round and said I was a sure thing to get into the academy that year...well, you can guess what I told them.

They were going PC way back in 1992...

I’m not saying that females don’t need to be cops either.

 

[cycleguy2300]

SCOTUS begs to differ.



Unless an LEO unintentionally threatens a citizen



And if it’s posted for no trespassing, that whole immunity thing comes in to play.



What if that shadow ends up being an LEO?

SCOTUS didn't say what you are trying to make them out to have said. SCOTIS saidnwe dont have a duty to protect people from themselves, not that we dont have a duty to act and protect.
All my training and policy make sure I know what my duty is, to protect innocent life above my own, to put myself in harms way to save another.

I am not even sure what your other arguments are... that Art is a left winger with political ambitions? Duh, I just wish he would get out of Texas.

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[mad88minute]

When I took my LTC class Texas law shield was there giving their sales pitch. I bit and signed up mostly so i get the book they were pimping " Texas gun laws"

Ive read about half of it, and I am less afraid of losing my second amendment rights than i am my 4th amendment rights now.

I almost convinced the 4th is completely eroded. With the second being whittled away behind it.

Curtailment trespassing, stop and frisk, probable cause because of a hunch. Less rights or privacy in my car than my home.

It's all pretty scary.

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[avvidclif]

I know the phone number of ONE neighbor, out of all of them around me.

Rekin you nailed the problem. I know all of my neighbors and their phone numbers. Growing up same thing. Never lived anywhere I didn't know my neighbors.

 

[avvidclif]

Preach it man.

PDs have been going out of their way to recruit softer less qualified people to meet quotas rather than standards.
About 6 months after I left Air Force Security and was a civilian, I was recruited along with at least one other military cop buddy of mine for APD
They ran us through everything and had the field down to 18 and the Academy was going to be around 15 that year.
We passed everything including the background checks only to be passed over for 2 females that spoke Spanish and we were told that the PD wanted more females and more people who spoke Spanish.

When they came back to me for the next round and said I was a sure thing to get into the academy that year...well, you can guess what I told them.

They were going PC way back in 1992...

I’m not saying that females don’t need to be cops either.

They have to recruit from the bottom of the barrel to meet quotas. And that was the 70's. How about hiring officers from NY City that didn't have a drivers license and had never driven a car? Or the guy with a masters in History and couldn't spell well enough to read a Mapsco. And they promoted the same way too.

 

[DyeF9]

SCOTUS didn't say what you are trying to make them out to have said. SCOTIS saidnwe dont have a duty to protect people from themselves, not that we dont have a duty to act and protect.
All my training and policy make sure I know what my duty is, to protect innocent life above my own, to put myself in harms way to save another.

I am not even sure what your other arguments are... that Art is a left winger with political ambitions? Duh, I just wish he would get out of Texas.

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In the parkland case against Scot Peterson "Constitutional law, as interpreted by the Supreme Court, does not generally give people a right to expect the police to protect them against harm." Meaning police have no legal requirement to protect the public and stand in harm's way.

That means they only serve and I dont mean serve the people as subservient. From example, the only thing they serve is money collection for city and state by force.

I'm not saying all cops are bad. You clearly take your job seriously. I respect that. Cops in general are not in the lime light for being do gooders lately though and from my experience they're more interested in collecting someone's hard earned money for stupid . A lot of them lately also seem to be inflict physical pain on people who may be really fucking stupid, but aren't actually any kind of threat.

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[Younggun]

So what would you have a police officer do if they see someone with a gun (or other deadly threat) and reasonably believe their life is in danger?

The location is besides the point in a house, outside of a house... the things you have collectivly suggested police should or shouldn't do, don't work in real life any more than someone suggesting you as a LTC holder should shoot someone in the leg, or arm or shoot the gun out of their hand instead of shooting COM or something else that will actually stop a threat.

It is no different than if you heard some cops arresting someone at gunpoint in a walmart and draw your gun and pie around the aisle to see what the cops are doing. You just might get shot...

We go into unknown situations and have to make quick decisions with limited amounts of information. It's why police are held to the standard of "objectively reasonable" or in other words "could another officer in the same situation, with the reasonable beliefs held by the officer at the time force or deadly force was used, reasonably come to the same conclusion"

If any of you are around Austin PM me and I can help you get a rideout so you can see what police really do. It's not your Alex Jones fantasy... You won't find another group that is as pro-gun, pro-bill-of-rights, down to earth as police (at least Texas police...) are.

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Lol.

I was raised by a cop. Most of the family friend growing up were cops. I have extended family in law enforcement. And a sister who works with law enforcement regularly. I know exactly what police “really do”.

My brother in law is currently a cop. His opinion was the the Ft Worth cop is a “fucking idiot”.

You snoop suspiciously around someone’s house in the dark, and then shoot the person for being suspicious. Nothing “Alex Jones” about that. And I don’t judge all cops by what that cop did. But I will judge cops who defend him.

Hell, just a few days ago I had a Dallas cop tell me that if they make “one little mistake” they get locked up for murder. Because going in a wrong apartment and killing as innocent man is a “little mistake” now.

You want to talk like taking an innocent life is just part of the program. You need to really think about the words coming out of your mouth (or keyboard). If innocent people are getting shot, there is a problem with the system somewhere. Maybe it’s the recruiting, maybe it’s the training, and maybe it’s a combination. Personally I don’t think someone who defends the killing of an innocent woman in her home should be in law enforcement so recruiting is definitely an issue. But who would want to be a cop if they think that they would work with people that defend such actions?

You can bring up whatever examples you like but the truth is that the vast majority of welfare checks result in nothing more than a visit and leave. If you are too scared to knock on the door maybe you should hide behind your car and run the siren until someone comes out instead of sneaking around their house and shooting them through the window.


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[DyeF9]

SCOTUS didn't say what you are trying to make them out to have said. SCOTIS saidnwe dont have a duty to protect people from themselves, not that we dont have a duty to act and protect.

“Neither the Constitution, nor state law, impose a general duty upon police officers or other governmental officials to protect individual persons from harm — even when they know the harm will occur,” said Darren L. Hutchinson, a professor and associate dean at the University of Florida School of Law. “Police can watch someone attack you, refuse to intervene and not violate the Constitution.”

The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that the government has only a duty to protect persons who are “in custody,” he pointed out



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[cycleguy2300]

“Neither the Constitution, nor state law, impose a general duty upon police officers or other governmental officials to protect individual persons from harm — even when they know the harm will occur,” said Darren L. Hutchinson, a professor and associate dean at the University of Florida School of Law. “Police can watch someone attack you, refuse to intervene and not violate the Constitution.”

The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that the government has only a duty to protect persons who are “in custody,” he pointed out



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That's Florida, not Texas... each state is going to be different.

The U.S. Constitution does not require police to act, but my policy does and so does my conscience.

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[DyeF9]

That's Florida, not Texas... each state is going to be different.

The U.S. Constitution does not require police to act, but my policy does and so does my conscience.

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Florida or Texas, doesn't matter. There's no requirement. I appreciate that YOU feel as though a sacred oath is taken and should step in to protect people, but if police have no legal requirement to protect me, I'm not going to just stand there and pretend that every cop is you. That means MY safety and the safety of my family is up to me and my family.

The failure of police to take appropriate action and do stupid shit like creep around that lady's family's house, and then shoot her through a window, shows there's a problem. She didn't do anything wrong other than to try to be prepared to protect herself. They fucked up, and if that's how you and your precinct operate, or if you think that's correct action taken then you're doing it wrong. That's not doing anything except being a danger to society.

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