Information Overload (Home Defense)

[markshere2]

Lots of reasons for Shotguns...

Lots of reasons for AR 15's, also. Low recoil, easy to aim, easy follow up shots, very effective at stopping aggressors (Kyle Rittenhouse, Texas church shooting, defensive display by the couple in St Louis, etc)

Handguns are nice also, easy to grab, easy to secure, very maneuverable in a hallway, etc.

Gunstore employees are second only to cops in dishing out crappy advice about guns gun laws and self-defense...

Read read read! the internet is free and there is BUNCH of info out there.

this guy is profane and very wise about gunfighting : Clint smith
He has a whole channel Raw clint




Get a dog, install lights and get your mind around the thought that anyone in your house un-invited is a threat that must be stopped.

 

[JLMcC]

I know next to nothing about guns. I was in the Army and I have shot all kinds of weapons but that is easy, they just give it to you, teach you about it and tell you to go shoot. Now that I am retired and living off of a nice secure (ha) base my wife and I have been discussing home defense. She has come around to wanting to get some firearms. We will both be taking a basic pistol course together to start and will then go to shotgun and then rifle. I have been watching YouTube videos, reading reviews, and articles about home defense. I have decided that given our limited experience I need to keep it as simple as possible (at least to start) and want to have a pistol and rifle that are the same caliber and can share magazines. While my wife agrees that we need to have some guns she isn't keen on spending a ton of money, I believe the purse strings will open up over time. To that end I have been looking at the Ruger EC9s / PC Carbine. I am not married to this combo, it was probably the easiest for me to match. I would appreciate any and all input to my decision process. Additionally I have been to a few gun stores and felt treated like a dummy for not knowing some basics. Can you recommend a gun store and or instructor?

Welcome to TGT forums and thank you for serving! I am retired Air Force and didn't get a lot of firearms training while repairing airplanes. I was blessed to have served without being deployed to any active shooting locations. I read quite a bit of this thread and didn't see any mention of the gun counter at the Randolph BX. The RAFB BX stock is thin right now, too, but as of Friday there were some good choices of shotguns and rifles available. With the shortages of firearms inventory and ammunition right now, having a few choices onhand is definitely an advantage. Ammo is just as scarce there as anywhere else so there's no "pot of lead" (or a rainbow) at the BX. The clerks at the gun counter are pretty knowledgeable and answer with common sense and experience. You paid the "membership fee" for the BX/PX, make the most of the benefit.
I concur with your matching calibers for a pistol and rifle but I think the 20 gauge pump shotgun is a good start for your home defense solution. 12 gauge is good but has stronger recoil that might discourage you or your wife from getting familiar with the weapon. The TGT forum is a good place for doing some homework and getting a chuckle or two. Good luck!

 

[PeoplePhobic]

Does the Ruger PC9 take EC9 mags? It seems like it would take SR9 mags maybe?

The EC9/LC9 are both pretty hard guns to shoot well. The combination of being very small and light and having very bad triggers makes them pretty difficult and awkward and uncomfortable. The EC9/LC9 seemed great in the store, especially if you're considering it for concealed carry but when I got it out to the range I realized it was not a gun I'd want to get in a gunfight with and it ended up getting traded. I would recommend starting with something that has a little more grip like a Glock 43X/48 (aftermarket mags can hold up to 15 rds!) or a M&P Shield if you really want a sub compact or come up to a Compact like a Glock 19 or a CZ P10C. You'll find once you get into it you'll have an easier time finding holsters and aftermarket stuff for Glocks. I don't want to be the "get a Glock" guy but they're very customizable. A lot of 9mm AR-15s are made to use Glock Magazines as well as things like the folding Kel-Tec Sub 2000. My brother had a sub 2k and it was great. It's probably one of my favorite guns to shoot but I also had a friend with one that was just a broken piece of shit. I don't know what you had training with but a 9MM Glock mag AR might be close enough to it that you can get some benefit from it.

I don't know about a 9mm rifle because I don't have one personally but if you go with a Glock 19 (or even the 43x) you could get one of those Micro Roni "stab" or "MKC" things and convert the same gun to a larger pistol brace thing with an optic, light, sling, and a spare mag on the gun that would handle more like a sbr or a smg than a rifle. If you hear some glass break in the middle of the night it'd be a nice little setup. If you want ammo/mag compatibility it might be something to look at. Also, Glocks have the best aftermarket mags with Magpul Pmags and ETS so you'll have that going for it.

Also, have you considered getting a 22LR as a first pistol and rifle? They're quieter, way less recoil, cheaper (mostly). You probably won't be sharing magazines but you can have a lot of fun with 22. Lots of cool guns have replicas in 22LR. It's just a pleasant experience to shoot 22 compared to pretty much any other caliber. Nothing has more flexibility. You can find 22LR guns in everything from a walther ppk, to colt saa, to henry lever action to smith and Wesson M&P 15-22. When I bring a new shooter to the range I like to start them out with my Marlin 995 because of it's obvious and simple controls and for a pistol I start them on my Colt 1911 22 because the 1911 weight makes the 22LR recoil feel like nothing. I wouldn't choose 22LR for home defense unless you have reliable ammo like cci mini mags for it but there are some advantages like probably not having permanent hearing loss if you need to shoot it indoors and knowing your gun really well because you can afford to plink and shoot it recreationally.

I would shy away from revolvers. I took like 3 pistol classes over the course of a few years and nobody who brought a revolver could keep up and nobody with a Taurus revolver made it through the class cause they all ended up broken. If you do want a revolver go S&W or Chiappa or something that isn't garbage. So many times I see a guys at the range with a Gucci Glock and their girl has a $200 snub nose piece of shit and hates shooting.

Also, with revolvers and lever actions don't forget that at a range you're probably going to have to unload and show clear if someone calls a cold range which is a LOT easier with a semi auto with a box magazine.

I feel you on the information overload though. There are a lot of ways to go and everyone has an opinion. If you don't have anything just get something. Anything is better than nothing and you can usually trade what you get toward something else. There are advantages and disadvantages to everything. Why not just get whatever you already have had training for or something close to it?

 

[bbbass]

I never even considered a revolver, or lever rifle. Now I'm really considering it.

Make sure your wife can pull the trigger on the revolver.... My wife had a Taurus 605 and it comes with a 12lb trigger pull that is very long.

Revolvers have the urban myth of being better for wimen cuz they are simple to operate... but a Glock 19 is simple and comes with a stock 5.5lb pull with a medium length of pull.

Long guns/shotguns are easier to shoot accurately with less training. As far as not being as maneuverable, we don't want the wife prowling the house looking for an intruder... the house is well lit, she stays in the bedroom and waits for trouble to come to her. But we don't have kids that we would need to check on. YMMV

We keep our yard and doorways lit at nite, and have background lighting in the house, and a dog. A camera system is not a bad idea either.

Also consider electronic earmuffs by the bed... let's you hear real well but mutes the deafening noise of shooting inside the house.

 

[stadlers1]

Home defense is not just about having a gun in the home. That actually is what I consider the last option left on the table. IMO, home defense is about levels of security. Firearms are just one small part of it.

The best approach IMO, is to either entice intruders to look elsewhere, or to deny them entry in the first place. If you have a home that is easy to penetrate, or makes it enticing enough for an intruder to risk making an entry, then it's possible your home could be a victim from intruders. Making entry difficult for intruders is one of the best options available. Any intruder becomes much less of a threat if they can't gain entry into your home.

Another level of home defense is some sort of early warning, if intrusion is attempted. Depending on where you live, and circumstances, this could be an alarm system or dogs that bark.

Agreed, I've got motion activated lights and cameras, hard wired so they can't block the wifi signal. I also have steel doors with additional anti-kick features around the door on both the hinge and striker side. I have a dog, but she is loud not vicious at all. I do have an alarm system. The next step is to install 15 mil window film on all downstairs windows and 8 mil on all upstairs windows. In the meantime my wife and I will take beginner and advanced pistol classes, beginner shotgun class. We have a plan to defend our home in the case of a break in with fall back positions that create a fatal funnel for any intruders. Kids, 19 and 16 know when the alarm goes off they lock themselves in their shared bathroom with their cellphones and call 911. We have a pre-arranged text message and verbal code word for them to know it is safe. My main concern at home is some baked out or mentally unstable person getting in, and some misguided attempt at mob justice the way the world is going these days.

 

[plinkr]

Agreed, I've got motion activated lights and cameras, hard wired so they can't block the wifi signal. I also have steel doors with additional anti-kick features around the door on both the hinge and striker side. I have a dog, but she is loud not vicious at all. I do have an alarm system. The next step is to install 15 mil window film on all downstairs windows and 8 mil on all upstairs windows. In the meantime my wife and I will take beginner and advanced pistol classes, beginner shotgun class. We have a plan to defend our home in the case of a break in with fall back positions that create a fatal funnel for any intruders. Kids, 19 and 16 know when the alarm goes off they lock themselves in their shared bathroom with their cellphones and call 911. We have a pre-arranged text message and verbal code word for them to know it is safe. My main concern at home is some baked out or mentally unstable person getting in, and some misguided attempt at mob justice the way the world is going these days.

OP, sounds like you have thought this out very well. All of the above are good ideas. The thing I would add is concealed carry legal insurance, in case you do have to use force in self defense. As they say, every bullet has a lawyer attached to it.

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk

 

[stadlers1]

Does the Ruger PC9 take EC9 mags? It seems like it would take SR9 mags maybe?

The EC9/LC9 are both pretty hard guns to shoot well. The combination of being very small and light and having very bad triggers makes them pretty difficult and awkward and uncomfortable. The EC9/LC9 seemed great in the store, especially if you're considering it for concealed carry but when I got it out to the range I realized it was not a gun I'd want to get in a gunfight with and it ended up getting traded. I would recommend starting with something that has a little more grip like a Glock 43X/48 (aftermarket mags can hold up to 15 rds!) or a M&P Shield if you really want a sub compact or come up to a Compact like a Glock 19 or a CZ P10C. You'll find once you get into it you'll have an easier time finding holsters and aftermarket stuff for Glocks. I don't want to be the "get a Glock" guy but they're very customizable. A lot of 9mm AR-15s are made to use Glock Magazines as well as things like the folding Kel-Tec Sub 2000. My brother had a sub 2k and it was great. It's probably one of my favorite guns to shoot but I also had a friend with one that was just a broken piece of shit. I don't know what you had training with but a 9MM Glock mag AR might be close enough to it that you can get some benefit from it.

I don't know about a 9mm rifle because I don't have one personally but if you go with a Glock 19 (or even the 43x) you could get one of those Micro Roni "stab" or "MKC" things and convert the same gun to a larger pistol brace thing with an optic, light, sling, and a spare mag on the gun that would handle more like a sbr or a smg than a rifle. If you hear some glass break in the middle of the night it'd be a nice little setup. If you want ammo/mag compatibility it might be something to look at. Also, Glocks have the best aftermarket mags with Magpul Pmags and ETS so you'll have that going for it.

Also, have you considered getting a 22LR as a first pistol and rifle? They're quieter, way less recoil, cheaper (mostly). You probably won't be sharing magazines but you can have a lot of fun with 22. Lots of cool guns have replicas in 22LR. It's just a pleasant experience to shoot 22 compared to pretty much any other caliber. Nothing has more flexibility. You can find 22LR guns in everything from a walther ppk, to colt saa, to henry lever action to smith and Wesson M&P 15-22. When I bring a new shooter to the range I like to start them out with my Marlin 995 because of it's obvious and simple controls and for a pistol I start them on my Colt 1911 22 because the 1911 weight makes the 22LR recoil feel like nothing. I wouldn't choose 22LR for home defense unless you have reliable ammo like cci mini mags for it but there are some advantages like probably not having permanent hearing loss if you need to shoot it indoors and knowing your gun really well because you can afford to plink and shoot it recreationally.

I would shy away from revolvers. I took like 3 pistol classes over the course of a few years and nobody who brought a revolver could keep up and nobody with a Taurus revolver made it through the class cause they all ended up broken. If you do want a revolver go S&W or Chiappa or something that isn't garbage. So many times I see a guys at the range with a Gucci Glock and their girl has a $200 snub nose piece of shit and hates shooting.

Also, with revolvers and lever actions don't forget that at a range you're probably going to have to unload and show clear if someone calls a cold range which is a LOT easier with a semi auto with a box magazine.

I feel you on the information overload though. There are a lot of ways to go and everyone has an opinion. If you don't have anything just get something. Anything is better than nothing and you can usually trade what you get toward something else. There are advantages and disadvantages to everything. Why not just get whatever you already have had training for or something close to it?

Thank you for the terrific response. I could shoot an M4 very well with iron sights so an AR-15 would be the best fit. I never got comfortable shooting the M9. I'm not sure if it was a matter of hand strength, flexibility or dexterity. I like the idea of starting out with a .22 for a few months and then upgrading to a 9mm once we are both comfortable. I suppose I just need to get to making a decision about manufacturer and go from there.

 

[leVieux]

1) Welcome

2) Home defense is a journey, not a destination. Start anywhere, understand you'll never be finished, and you will make changes over time. Don't try to know everything, just try to improve.

3) 80/20 rule applies. For example, just putting a "Home Protected by ABC Alarm Company" sign in your front yard reduces your chance of being burglarized by a huge percentage. Here in Central TX I think it reduces your chances by 3/4 or so. It's crazy. Night lights outside your house, Ring doorbell or similar, Ring floodlights / security cameras or similar and you're way ahead of the game.

4) Firearms training is infinitely more important than which firearms, which calibers, which brands. Get training, practice at home (called "dry firing", look it up and do it), go to the range, get more training and go around the loop again.

5) Enjoy the journey. Shooting is tons of fun.

A

All very true & important, but not answering the question.

GLOCK mags fit the Ruger carbine. Look at the xtremely popular GLOCK 19.

leVieux

 

[Tamlibtoim]

Welcome to the forum and thank you for your service. Just wanted to let you know the Ruger PC carbine has magazine compatibility with the Ruger SR series, Ruger Security-9 series, Ruger American series & Glock. NOT compatible with EC9/LC9 series. Another thought to consider, a full-size handgun like the Ruger American with a mounted laser/light combo will give you much more dexterity in your home and a free hand to use, ( ex. dial 911) unlike a shotgun or a rifle where you need to use both hands. Just something to think about. IMHO A full-size pistol with mounted light/laser combo and then a pump shotgun is an awesome home defense pairing. The pistol is for quick access and then you have some serious back up fire power if needed.
As others have stated training is key, that and getting comfortable with your chosen Firearm. Good luck and welcome to Texas!

 

[CyberWolf]

...In the meantime my wife and I will take beginner and advanced pistol classes, beginner shotgun class. We have a plan to defend our home in the case of a break in with fall back positions that create a fatal funnel for any intruders. Kids, 19 and 16 know when the alarm goes off they lock themselves in their shared bathroom with their cellphones and call 911...

A few thoughts to add...

- At 16 & 19, it may be good to consider getting the kids involved in weapons/tactical training as well; that would greatly expand defensive options & capabilities, give you more peace-of-mind, and be a good way for the family to spend time together...

- Handguns generally take much longer to become proficient with than a modern rifle, whereas you could, for example, build 4 braced pistols in 5.56 w/ 10.5" barrels...very light/maneuverable, can take a sling (every bit as useful for accuracy/stability as retention, if not moreso), and overall much easier for a beginner to run effectively than either handgun or shotgun...You can even find Airsoft variants with look/feel very close to real thing, and use those as "trainers"...

Just my .02....

 

[Tcruse]

Welcome to the forum, sir! From just up the road. If you're interested in recommendations, you can get the most varied opinions available right here on this forum! I've been shooting firearms of all types for a little more than 60 years (which does not make me an expert). My recommendation to you for a home defense weapon that would definitely do the job would be in the area of a 20 ga. pump shotgun! Others may agree or disagree.

I agree that a shot gun is probably one of the most powerful/effective choices for stopping a single bad guy or multiple bad guys depending on your accuracy and number of shells in the gun.
The down sides are:
1) Are you likely to have it within reach when you go to the door during the day time?
2) Will you have it with you when you are out side doing yard work?
3) Will you have it with you when you are sitting at the dinner table or watching TV?
4) Is your home set up so that you can move around corners and hallways without compromise control of your weapon?

 

[Tcruse]

Welcome to the forum and thank you for your service. Just wanted to let you know the Ruger PC carbine has magazine compatibility with the Ruger SR series, Ruger Security-9 series, Ruger American series & Glock. NOT compatible with EC9/LC9 series. Another thought to consider, a full-size handgun like the Ruger American with a mounted laser/light combo will give you much more dexterity in your home and a free hand to use, ( ex. dial 911) unlike a shotgun or a rifle where you need to use both hands. Just something to think about. IMHO A full-size pistol with mounted light/laser combo and then a pump shotgun is an awesome home defense pairing. The pistol is for quick access and then you have some serious back up fire power if needed.
As others have stated training is key, that and getting comfortable with your chosen Firearm. Good luck and welcome to Texas!

The Ruger PCC in combination with Glock 19,19X,17 or 45 also works well. PCC can use standard Glock 15,17,19,20 and 33 round mags

 

[oldag]

A few thoughts to add...

- At 16 & 19, it may be good to consider getting the kids involved in weapons/tactical training as well; that would greatly expand defensive options & capabilities, give you more peace-of-mind, and be a good way for the family to spend time together...

- Handguns generally take much longer to become proficient with than a modern rifle, whereas you could, for example, build 4 braced pistols in 5.56 w/ 10.5" barrels...very light/maneuverable, can take a sling (every bit as useful for accuracy/stability as retention, if not moreso), and overall much easier for a beginner to run effectively than either handgun or shotgun...You can even find Airsoft variants with look/feel very close to real thing, and use those as "trainers"...

Just my .02....

At 16 & 19, past time.

 

[Tcruse]

I like the pump shotgun for home defense too. You can get one pretty cheap, and you have the benefit of being able to make that unmistakable sound in the dark of the night that will give most pause and make them reconsider their next steps.

If there's a chance you can make someone turn and run away without firing a shot, that means it's a great caliber (gauge) to own.

Or make the bad guys know exactly where you are.
In many cases, the best response is to go to a place that is easy to defend and wait for the bad guys to come to you, giving you time to call 911 to document the issue prior to having to take action.

 

[Tcruse]

All this talk of interchangeable mags, I can't help myself. Sometimes old school is the best school, as in a revolver and lever rifle, both chambered in .357 magnum. Both available at multiple price points (normally at least). Fun and cheap to shoot means more practice means more effective. It doesn't get more point and shoot than a double action wheelgun.

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk

"It doesn't get more point and shoot than a double action wheelgun." - true, however, 38Spec is higher priced than 9mm for training (in normal times). Also, from the current set of news stories, it appears that the likely hood for a home break in is that there will be 4 to 5 bad guys, not 1. So, the more ammo available quickly the better. I would suggest a compact or duty size handgun as one of your tools. Also, it many times makes a lot of sense, to start with one of the major brands, namely Glock, Sig, S&W, or Ruger (not in any particular order - I have multiple Glocks, multiple Rugers and a Sig P320, not disappointed by any of them)

 

[Tcruse]

Thank you for serving. I have been where you are. I also was in the Army & got out thinking that I had a good understanding of firearms. However, after really pursuing my passion for self defense & firearms, I quickly realized that I had some shortcomings in the way of practical self defense vs what I knew from my military experience.

I think that I understand the reason for wanting interchangeability of magazines between platforms but, I would like to challenge your thinking on this. The idea behind it seems to make sense on the surface. After all it would be nice to only have to keep one type of ammo on hand, one style of magazine & be able to switch between platforms with ease. However, in my opinion when it comes to the ballistics of handgun ammo, quite frankly they suck. I’m not saying that they won’t stop someone from doing harm to you or your loved ones but, the stopping capabilities of handgun munitions hardly compares to the benefits of rifle ballistics. To me, where handguns shine is in their convenience & their wield-ability. They are compact & easy to conceal & store. They can be more readily available in the event that you need them. On the other hand, history has shown us that the guy with the bigger gun usually will win the fight. If you research some of the incidents where a handgun was used to stop a perpetrator you will find that often times many more rounds were needed to stop the threat. A man can take many rounds & keep fighting. Whereas when it comes to rifles & rifle ammunition, much less is required to stop the threat. In other words you have a better chance of ending the fight sooner. We can see this in statistics gathered on gunshot injuries. Typically patients with handgun gunshot wounds will usually survive believe it or not. This is not the case when it comes to patients wounded by rifle gunshot wounds. The reason behind this is that rifle ammo is traveling at a much higher speed & creates a much larger wound cavity which directly relates to the stopping capability of either platform.
Now, putting a handgun caliber into a Carbine platform does have some advantages as well as some disadvantages over having the same caliber in a handgun platform. Being able to take more accurate shots in a Carbine vs a handgun is a definite advantage but you give up the wield ability in & around corners & confined spaces.
Something else to consider that actually seems counterintuitive is the fact that 5.56mm or .223cal is usually around 55-62 grain. That is much less mass than your typical 115-124 grain 9mm. Less mass means that the round will dump much more of its energy into the tissue of the perpetrator & or Sheetrock & other obstacles & thus lessen the distance that that round will over penetrate through walls.
Over all what I am getting at is in choosing a Carbine for home/self defense that uses handgun ammo you are taking on the disadvantages of a rifle platform & not getting any of the advantages in having a rifle platform. Loosing wield ability, not gaining stopping power, & not reducing over penetration. I would consider having a handgun to keep handy to fight your way to a rifle that may not be as readily available.
Sorry for the long reply but there is a lot to be said on this issue & actually a lot that I left out due to trying to keep this a short as possible.

All good points and commonly believed to be true. However, in the less than 20 yard range, I can put more rounds on target with a Glock/Sig/1911 pistol than with a rifle. I am sure, that is not true of a person that spends their range time with a rifle instead of a pistol. In any of the three platforms, shotgun, rifle, or pistol, there are lots of choices in ammo that allow picking the right choice based on your environments.

 

[oldag]

"It doesn't get more point and shoot than a double action wheelgun." - true, however, 38Spec is higher priced than 9mm for training (in normal times). Also, from the current set of news stories, it appears that the likely hood for a home break in is that there will be 4 to 5 bad guys, not 1. So, the more ammo available quickly the better. I would suggest a compact or duty size handgun as one of your tools. Also, it many times makes a lot of sense, to start with one of the major brands, namely Glock, Sig, S&W, or Ruger (not in any particular order - I have multiple Glocks, multiple Rugers and a Sig P320, not disappointed by any of them)

I don't let the cost of ammo drive my choice of caliber. .45 is more expensive than 9 mm, and worth ever penny.

 

[Axxe55]

I like the pump shotgun for home defense too. You can get one pretty cheap, and you have the benefit of being able to make that unmistakable sound in the dark of the night that will give most pause and make them reconsider their next steps.

If there's a chance you can make someone turn and run away without firing a shot, that means it's a great caliber (gauge) to own.

I am a huge proponent of the pump shotgun, based upon it being versatile, relatively trouble free and for the most part, simple to operate for most people. But I don't subscribe to the "racking sound of a pump" as being a deterrent to stopping a threat. Simple reasons. If the intruder, or intruders are hopped up on drugs or not mentally balanced, there isn't any reason to believe that sound would even comprehend with them. That sound might, mean something to a person that is rational and of sound mind. But I'm not willing to bet my life on it.

For my needs, my pump shotguns are loaded, but not chambered, simply more for safety and simplicity of operation. No fumbling with a safety. Just rack and fire. For my usage, the bad guy won't remember the racking sound.

 

[London]

If you're going to carry the weight of a carbine, get it in a carbine caliber. 5.56 is superior to any handgun round in every way.

For both rifles and pistols I recommend ones that have proven themselves in combat. Glock, M&P pistols, and non-budget ARs (which means avoid the M&P15). Two or three grand in firearms isn't a lot of money to spend to save your life.

 

[oldag]

If you're going to carry the weight of a carbine, get it in a carbine caliber. 5.56 is superior to any handgun round in every way.

For both rifles and pistols I recommend ones that have proven themselves in combat. Glock, M&P pistols, and non-budget ARs (which means avoid the M&P15). Two or three grand in firearms isn't a lot of money to spend to save your life.

I prefer .50 BMG myself.