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How Do You View Force on Force?

Discussion in 'Training & Competition' started by Jon Payne, Dec 27, 2018.

  1. toddnjoyce

    toddnjoyce TGT Addict

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    What Iike:

    Shoot, move, communicate. Go/NO Go criteria based on actual ROE. Video replay in big picture and individual views overlaid. Smell/sound pumped in. Realistic stressors lit/unlit/mixed lighting conditions. Team ops with those you’re operating with.

    What I dislike:

    Evolutions without all the above.

    Unknown participant backgrounds paying for the opp to pull a trigger on another human.

    Probably that part the most. I only spent six of my military years in a direct combat arms position...AF TACP leader in both mounted and dismounted IN units and DS to 10SFG.

    A CIV wanting to pay for the opportunity to pump a round into another human just doesn’t sit right with me. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t and won’t judge those offering the training, I just don’t want to participate. Too many variable.
     


  2. Jon Payne

    Jon Payne Well-Known

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    From a civilian and law enforcement trainer’s standpoint I can tell you FoF courses are way less stressful than live fire courses. Perhaps it’s because we have strict rules and procedures for FoF as well as a system of checks and balances. No live weapons allowed period. No live ammo, no live blades, no live firearms. NO EXCEPTIONS.


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  3. birddog

    birddog bullshit meter

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    nunya
    there you go.

    Another way of looking at it. And I have to say I understand where he’s coming from.
     
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  4. toddnjoyce

    toddnjoyce TGT Addict

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    Jon, please don’t take my position as a criticism. Your CATM background should be enough to understand my experience and views.

    I’ll admit that I’m unique in my experiences and I do rely on an over abundance of caution as I’ve seen what can happen even on the most controlled of ranges.

    But that is also several orders of magnitude above what *most* CIV and even LE ranges will allow. T2 and T1 DS workups are a whole different animal, as you should know.
     
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  5. Jon Payne

    Jon Payne Well-Known

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    I understand your point of view and don’t take your opinion as criticism. I was typing as you were responding. Having run FoF for military teams, SWAT teams, two person LEO patrol and lone officer; there are many different facets to FoF. I find FoF for armed citizens to be very rewarding. I’m sure not everyone will.


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  6. toddnjoyce

    toddnjoyce TGT Addict

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    I don’t disagree with that statement. I believe there is value in realistic, relevant FoF courses for civilians. Especially if it’s tailored to scenarios relevant to local/state self defense/use of force laws.
     
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  7. Jon Payne

    Jon Payne Well-Known

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    Now you’re cooking lol. Try working with veteran cops who’ve never done it. Mistakes made in FoF cause embarrassment; mistakes in the world cause fatalities and casualties.


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  8. Bertgamble

    Bertgamble New Member

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    I have done force on force scenarios at Gunsite and they are very useful. Note that this is not a high noon shootout. It is learning tactics so you don't do the wrong thing and end up getting yourself shot for it.
     

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