Best Home Defense Ammo

[zackmars]

If you really want to piss off an emergency room Dr use #6 shot. They will tell you they can't remove all of it, too many pieces. And before you say they are too small think about this. Because none will exit the body you just got hit with a 1 & 1/8 oz or 1&1/4 oz pile of lead at 1100 FPS and got to enjoy all the kinetic energy. It converts flesh to hamburger. Sure it'll go thru a couple of interior walls but that brick on the outside will stop it.

Just food for thought for all the "What if" folks

terrible advice. to stop a threat, you need penetration, more penetration than even #4 buck fails to consistently provide.

you can't have your cake and eat it too, anything capable of reliably stopping an attacker will go through a lot of drywall.

 

[DyeF9]

Personally I like the Underwood Lehigh Defense Controlled Chaos 62 grain 223, Hornady TAP or IMI Razor Core for home defense.

In my handguns/pcc I use Critical Defense or critical duty. For the micro pistols I use Federal HST 150 gr

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[BMF500]

terrible advice. to stop a threat, you need penetration, more penetration than even #4 buck fails to consistently provide.

you can't have your cake and eat it too, anything capable of reliably stopping an attacker will go through a lot of drywall.

I whole heartily disagree with that. John Wick isn't breaking in to jack your TV/Jewelry/Cash, a dope fiend is. At best a professional thief/thug. A blast from skeet load will dissuade about anyone if not completely immobilize them at close range. I've popped hogs in side of the head in trap at 2ft with the cheapest of the cheap .410 out of snake charmer and will damn near pop their eyes out. Most have their wife and children on the other side of the walls to consider potentially receiving misplaced shots, in the dark, when half asleep. For this reason the 5.56 is not by the bed.

 

[Windrunner50]

+1 on the Hornady TAP round 75 grain

 

[mongoose]

terrible advice. to stop a threat, you need penetration, more penetration than even #4 buck fails to consistently provide.

you can't have your cake and eat it too, anything capable of reliably stopping an attacker will go through a lot of drywall.

I upgraded an Emergency room to be a certified level 1 trauma center. During the grand opening I struck up a conversation with one of the trauma surgeons ( who was also a gun enthusiast.) He told me after his experience with gun shot wounds in the operating room that he would not hesitate to use # 7 birdshot for a SD round. As said, it turns what it hits into hamburger meat.

 

[DoubleDuty]

Winchester 223 pdx1 defender ballistics test showed a 3 inch wound channel with almost 13" of penetration.

 

[zackmars]

I upgraded an Emergency room to be a certified level 1 trauma center. During the grand opening I struck up a conversation with one of the trauma surgeons ( who was also a gun enthusiast.) He told me after his experience with gun shot wounds in the operating room that he would not hesitate to use # 7 birdshot for a SD round. As said, it turns what it hits into hamburger meat.

it creates flesh wounds, it is not able to reach important internal organs that should be hit (or disrupted) to stop a threat.

bird shot is garbage, can it work? sure, but other choices work far better, with less risk of having your attacker pissed that you think he's a small bird, not a person. It should serve as a good clue that when shotguns saw heavy use by police and military groups, they didn't use bird shot

And even though he may see all sorts of GSW's, and likes guns, doesn't make him knowledgeable about ballistics, just like how being in the military doesn't make you super knowledgeable about guns, or owning a bunch of cars doesn't make you a master mechanic

 

[Charlie]

Thirty caliber balls in the hull of a 20 ga. would do the trick! The home invader would probably not need a lawyer.

 

[cycleguy2300]

I upgraded an Emergency room to be a certified level 1 trauma center. During the grand opening I struck up a conversation with one of the trauma surgeons ( who was also a gun enthusiast.) He told me after his experience with gun shot wounds in the operating room that he would not hesitate to use # 7 birdshot for a SD round. As said, it turns what it hits into hamburger meat.

Was this doc an Aggie with a good sized moustache?

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[mongoose]

it creates flesh wounds, it is not able to reach important internal organs that should be hit (or disrupted) to stop a threat.

bird shot is garbage, can it work? sure, but other choices work far better, with less risk of having your attacker pissed that you think he's a small bird, not a person. It should serve as a good clue that when shotguns saw heavy use by police and military groups, they didn't use bird shot

And even though he may see all sorts of GSW's, and likes guns, doesn't make him knowledgeable about ballistics, just like how being in the military doesn't make you super knowledgeable about guns, or owning a bunch of cars doesn't make you a master mechanic

That is interesting. The Doctor specifically referred to the damage he has seen to internal organs done by birdshot compared to 00 buckshot. He stated the birdshot turned the internal organs to hamburger meat. So,. I guess it does penetrate. While this is all anecdotal evidence, what scientific evidence are you offering to backup your claims?

Was this doc an Aggie with a good sized moustache?

No, he was a Duke grad.
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.?

 

[BMF500]

it creates flesh wounds, it is not able to reach important internal organs that should be hit (or disrupted) to stop a threat.

bird shot is garbage, can it work? sure, but other choices work far better, with less risk of having your attacker pissed that you think he's a small bird, not a person. It should serve as a good clue that when shotguns saw heavy use by police and military groups, they didn't use bird shot

And even though he may see all sorts of GSW's, and likes guns, doesn't make him knowledgeable about ballistics, just like how being in the military doesn't make you super knowledgeable about guns, or owning a bunch of cars doesn't make you a master mechanic

 

[HKShooter65]

it creates flesh wounds, it is not able to reach important internal organs that should be hit (or disrupted) to stop a threat.

bird shot is garbage, ...

I'm pretty sure this is nonsense.

Bird shot at bedroom distances will blow an enormous hole and stop pretty much any threat.

Maybe I should go buy (and waste) a brisket at HEB and shoot it with #7 and 00-Buck.

Both rounds will, almost certainly, expend 100% of their kinetic energy on the target.

Kudos to the above videos!

 

[avvidclif]

terrible advice. to stop a threat, you need penetration, more penetration than even #4 buck fails to consistently provide.

you can't have your cake and eat it too, anything capable of reliably stopping an attacker will go through a lot of drywall.

At "room" distances birdshot will be a pattern 3-4" in diameter. Next time you're felling froggy have someone hit you in the body with a 15# sledge hammer propelled by a full swing and see where you wind up from where you were. That's nothing like the energy in a shotshell at close range. The picture of the guy with his back peppered was from probably 30-40 yds away judging from the size of the pattern.

Have you ever seen what one does?

 

[zackmars]

I'm pretty sure this is nonsense.

Bird shot at bedroom distances will blow an enormous hole and stop pretty much any threat.

Maybe I should go buy (and waste) a brisket at HEB and shoot it with #7 and 00-Buck.

Both rounds will, almost certainly, expend 100% of their kinetic energy on the target.

Kudos to the above videos!

Birdshot does not "blow an enormous hole". It creates a nasty looking surface wound, but pellets are only going a few centimeters into flesh, far too short to hit any important organ

Any threat? If you find yourself fighting a flock of angry birds, sure, but people are tough, far tougher than a bird, or clay disc.

Maybe you should go get a brisket and shoot it. All that will tell you is what birshot will do to a brisket. Maybe you haven't noticed yet, but people aren't briskets.

The videos? Lol. They constantly show how little penetration birdshot has, even on clear ballistics gel that is easier to penetrate than ACTUAL ballistics gel.

Don't be a dumbass, use a proper defensive load in your gun. You aren't hunting dove or shooting skeet or trap.

 

[zackmars]

At "room" distances birdshot will be a pattern 3-4" in diameter. Next time you're felling froggy have someone hit you in the body with a 15# sledge hammer propelled by a full swing and see where you wind up from where you were. That's nothing like the energy in a shotshell at close range. The picture of the guy with his back peppered was from probably 30-40 yds away judging from the size of the pattern.

Have you ever seen what one does?

Yes, ive seen what it does, and what it fails to do. I've picked up pieces of cardboard set up at 15 yards filled with birdshot pellets still stuck in the front

Energy alone is nothing, and isn't a good method by which to end a fight, to do that you need to shut down organs, which requires going through muscle, meat and bone, which birdshot can not do with any degree of reliability. Hell, even #4 buck can't muster the penetration necessary a lot of the time.

Birdshot is not a good choice for defensive use. Never was, never will be.

 

[zackmars]

That is interesting. The Doctor specifically referred to the damage he has seen to internal organs done by birdshot compared to 00 buckshot. He stated the birdshot turned the internal organs to hamburger meat. So,. I guess it does penetrate. While this is all anecdotal evidence, what scientific evidence are you offering to backup your claims?




.?

The fact birdshot can barely muster 2-3" of penetration in clear ballistics gel, let alone actual ballistics gel.

It should be noted not all internal organs are equally important. On a torso, the stuff that needs to be taken out to halt an attacker is surrounded by the rib cage, and quite often, people have their arms in front of them, presenting yet another barrier birdshot won't get through. Like how 9mm winchester silvertip stopped 1" short of the bad guys heart in the north hollywood shoot out, or that one time a dude got his jaw shot off from a cop with a .44 magnum, but was still able to kill the cop. Yes, shot placment matters, but the gear still has to perform.

Birdshot may rip up somebodies lower intestines, but it's not going to consistently collapse lungs (not counting contact shots), it's not going to reach the heart, etc

Penetration is a double edged sword, too little, and its not going to reach the important bits, too much, well too much and you get people who think it's the end of the world and start suggesting the worst possible alternative.

 

[DyeF9]

I upgraded an Emergency room to be a certified level 1 trauma center. During the grand opening I struck up a conversation with one of the trauma surgeons ( who was also a gun enthusiast.) He told me after his experience with gun shot wounds in the operating room that he would not hesitate to use # 7 birdshot for a SD round. As said, it turns what it hits into hamburger meat.

The fact that he saw the shotgun wound is evidence enough that it didn't work. If it did, they'd be going to a morgue not a hospital.

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[zackmars]

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4340-12-gauge-shotgun-loads-for-LE-duty-use

And for the lol's

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4331-The-Presumptive-Hazards-of-Over-Penetration

 

[BMF500]

Hell, even #4 buck can't muster the penetration necessary a lot of the time.

Seriously? You shoot more than paper and cardboard much?

That is 41ea, .24cal, 60gr projectiles coming @ 1325fps. If that doesn't drop a man at any distance with in the walls of your home, you missed. If your home is large enough for this to be ineffective within due to distance, you probably have private security on payroll.

**Edit: That is Remington 3" Mag**

 

[DyeF9]

I'm personally not for shotguns for self defense as an initial default. They're not difficult to operate, but they are a bit long and unweildly in some cases and depending on the load they kick like a mother effer, but the main thing that bothers me is it's hard to get good at reloading them quickly. Don't care what people say about the can't hit it in x shots blah blah blah, you can't predict circumstances or how your body is going to react to that kind of stress, so make it as easy as possible. So imo velocity is King, and a rifle will do that better than a handgun. Want to negate over penetration? The. Use fragmenting rounds or expanding hollow points. In defense of bird shot, #4 in particular, it would probably work just fine though.



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