Happy San Jacinto Day

[Rocky Carey]

Texans remember this day in history

 

[Bozz10mm]

"Remember the Alamo!" Was the war cry of the day.

 

[oldag]

Maybe we need another battle for freedom.

 

[BRD@66]

My flag be flyin'.

 

[Bozz10mm]

"Remember 2019!"

 

[jordanmills]

Remember Goliad!

 

[skfullgun]

Come And Take It!

 

[Axxe55]

Some years ago, the wife and I on vacation, went to many of the sites and places that were important to the Texas Independence. Very humbling, and informative to actually see these places, towns and monuments that you have read about.

I love Texas history.

Remember the Alamo!

 

[Army 1911]

Remember Waco!

 

[oldag]

Remember Waco!

I will not honor Vernon Howell, a child molester in any form.

 

[Axxe55]

I will not honor Vernon Howell, a child molester in any form.

IF, he was a child molester, in no uncertain terms, he shouldn't be honored in any way.

Those claims came out after the fact, by the FBI, BATF and the AG Janet Reno.

So was Howell a child molester? Or were they using that as justification for their screw up?

Personally, I'm not totally convinced he was. Remember, Waco wasn't that far after Ruby Ridge, and the fiasco there.

 

[deemus]

Some years ago, the wife and I on vacation, went to many of the sites and places that were important to the Texas Independence. Very humbling, and informative to actually see these places, towns and monuments that you have read about.

I love Texas history.

Remember the Alamo!

My first trip to Washington on the Brazos was very moving. Glad I was able to share it with my son on the first trip. Took my wife on the second trip. Never seen her so quiet.

Remember the Alamo! Remember La Bahia!

In Texas, if you kill one of us, we will kill ya back.

 

[oldag]

IF, he was a child molester, in no uncertain terms, he shouldn't be honored in any way.

Those claims came out after the fact, by the FBI, BATF and the AG Janet Reno.

So was Howell a child molester? Or were they using that as justification for their screw up?

Personally, I'm not totally convinced he was. Remember, Waco wasn't that far after Ruby Ridge, and the fiasco there.

Yes, absolutely he was. Read the words of the girls he molested.

And no, the allegations came to light before the raid.

Did the ATF screw up? Absolutely. Playing cowboy trying to justify their existence after there was discussion of splitting up the ATF. That does not make Vernon a hero or martyr. Vernon did a lot of damage to the people in his cult.

The ATF should have let the local sheriff pick Vernon up on his normal Wednesday visit to town. The sheriff had arrested him before without incident, but he was smart enough to do it when Vernon was away from the compound and alone. The ATF would not listen to the sheriff.

 

[deemus]

Yes, absolutely he was. Read the words of the girls he molested.

And no, the allegations came to light before the raid.

Did the ATF screw up? Absolutely. Playing cowboy trying to justify their existence after there was discussion of splitting up the ATF. That does not make Vernon a hero or martyr. Vernon did a lot of damage to the people in his cult.

The ATF should have let the local sheriff pick Vernon up on his normal Wednesday visit to town. The sheriff had arrested him before without incident, but he was smart enough to do it when Vernon was away from the compound and alone. The ATF would not listen to the sheriff.

Spot on. He had sex with every girl older than 13. But none of the parents would rat him out to CPS. Most of the kids out there were fathered by him. He jogged down that gravel road every day. All they had to do was pick him up. The whole thing was avoidable.

A 36 year police veteran in Waco was very critical of it. And the fallout around town was interesting. I lived in Waco back then.

 

[Army 1911]

He's not the one that burned a bunch of innocent people.

 

[BMF500]

He's not the one that burned a bunch of innocent people.

Just how innocent are folks that aid and abed someone like that?

Yes, for clarity the ATF were wrong AF and suck donkey.

 

[BMF500]

Back on subject.

 

[oldag]

He's not the one that burned a bunch of innocent people.

His illegal activities created the situation. I will never have any admiration for him at any level.

And as stated above, the ATF fouled up royally.

 

[Army 1911]

Never said I admired him. Feds blew it and proved again that they are judge jury and executioner. Just like the Weavers

 

[Axxe55]

Waco was a fustercluck from the get go.

Whether Howell was a child molester, or not is debatable on the fact that he's not alive to refute those allegations. Remember, innocent until proven guilty, in a court of law.

I understand why BATF got involved. Again, allegations that he had some illegal weapons. (Shades of Randy Weaver, and Ruby Ridge.)

BATF got involved because they still had egg on their face from Ruby Ridge, and needed to show the public that they mattered.

If the allegations of child abuse were true, then it clearly was a job for CPS and local LE agencies, not the BATF. If their allegations were also true, they very well could have piggy backed a case and investigated it while he was in county lock up.

I have no idea whether he was innocent, or guilty for anything he was accused of, and we will never know for sure, since he's dead now.

I will add this. If he was guilty of being a child molester, I hope he's burning in hell. If he was innocent, I hope that someday the truth comes out.